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Bowen should still be in the starting lineup. He and Tim set the defensive tone for the whole game and the entire bench.
I would not be confident in this current lineup in the playoffs. NO WAY
All three of those guys were finished. They were soon out of the league and never did much else after the spurs.
Bowen should still be in the starting lineup. He and Tim set the defensive tone for the whole game and the entire bench.
I would not be confident in this current lineup in the playoffs. NO WAY
There's a 4th reason why Pop has liked Vaughn:
4. Knows his role in the Spurs' offensive and defensive systems and can execute (well, other than the 20 foot J) reliably.
But just like Pop once made Bruce an integral part of the Spurs' defense, times have changed.
pop likes vaughn cause he reminds him of avery johnson who was also limited....
Vaughn will not win you a game nor lose you a game.
Hes just there.
That's why he was there.
Good points, but I have to disagree with some.
This is the NBA, and the spurs are a le contender so as people have stated tough love will be in effect. George Hill is only a Rookie after all, and yes he can play good ball but you can't put too much on him (See Rodney Stuckey at the Pistons, this is his second season but since he had injuries last season this can be seen as his first. The Pistons put him straight into the starting lineup, and after about 2 months he's not producing to the standards the team wanted.)
But I will agree that Hill should be taking parkers place when he's not on the floor, not Mason.
Nobody (including Timvp) has addressed the fact that Hill hit the rookie wall several weeks back. His production took a severe hit, and I think Pop may be trying to deal with that drop off while also trying to get Hill fresh (or refreshed) for the playoffs.
In my mind, THIS is the major cause for Mason coming in to back Parker, as well as preparing him for point guard duty in the playoffs, not some half-baked theory about Pop's inep ude with backup point guards.
The thing Timvp doesn't even mention is that all the point guards he mentions (Kerr, Stoudamire, Daniels, Beno) were defensively liabilities. It's no wonder they couldn't stay on the court. As for Daniels, he may not be a defensively liabilty now, but everytime he hit the court while playing in a spurs uniform he had points/highlight dunks in mind.
Fail on the analysis.
That's pretty unfair.
Kerr & Porter - while still having something left in the tank - were well past their primes. Van Exel & Stoudamire were washed up regardless. Stoudamire, despite receiving regular minutes in Memphis, had been bad for over 2 years before Pop got a hold of him.
Claxton has never been consistent before or since...but that still falls on Pop?
Really, the only good examples are Daniels & Beno.
It should be noted that Daniels was viewed as a bit of a disappointment before he even got to San Antonio. We got him for 50 cents on the dollar considering that he had been a lottery pick the year before. But he got steady minutes for the most part (in different roles admittedly) over his time here. But he's always been up and down save for a couple of years in Seattle & one in DC that coincided with what should be his prime.
And I still believe that Beno is a guy who can fool you with numbers on a bad team, but will never be a rotation guy on a good team.
It remains to be seen what becomes of Hill.
This is a good topic. I was thinking the same thing last night about hill's agressiveness on offense or lack there of relating to Pop.
Early in the season, when Parker went out, Hill did a stellar job on both ends and had balance.
There is absolutely no ing reason why hill couldn't score on Nash and most point guards every time down the floor. He has size, athleticism, can shoot the 3 and slam on anyone....
I am with ya, good stuff timvp. Pop's a turd.
And AJ knew his role and executed it.
Pop expects all players to do so. It hasn't just been veteran point guards who've found their way out of SA quickly because they couldn't learn their role. Mercer and Mohammed come to mind right off the top, in addition to the veteran points mentioned above.
This is why Pop sticks with players like Finley. He knows his role and Pop can count on him executing it. To Pop that is paramount.
The Spurs let AD go even though he was best buds or whatever with Duncan.
I think Hill shoots just fine from the 3. I recall 10 games or so ago against the Celtics that he threw up one that looked like butter on the move and it dropped the bottom of the net.
Mason is great, but he tends to rush a little during the middle of a game when he should reset to Tim and wait for another kick out.
If Mason would go pick up Jaren Jackson's Guide to Closing Down the Forum VHS tape at Walmart for $4.99, he would reach another level.
Pop never really liked Barry for this reason as well. He tolerated him because, yes, his skills fit with the motion O, but his general tendency towards pussiness did not and of course he was not a defensive stalwart.
This is why it's not hard to see Gooden coming in, putting up some big stats and then Pop putting him on the bench as the postseason arrives. There will likely be a 'Free Gooden' movement in this forum. The only thing that may prevent that is that a Gooden with flawed execution may be a more attractive option to a stuck in mud Oberto with perfect execution.
One thing Hill does have going for him is his defense and rebounding is far superior to that of Van Excel, Stoudamire, Udrih, Vaughn, and Claxton.
That alone makes it so he'll never be completely out of the rotation. If Popovich doesn't want him, we'll take him in Phoenix
Hey Timvp,
Solid post but I couldn't disagree with you more. Antonio Daniels moved on to other teams but he's really no better than he was here. He had plenty of chances to take over this team but failed miserably.
2 of his glaring weakness were:
1. Failure to drive and kick out to shooters. If he decides to drive to the basket, he goes for the shot and that's it. Teams knew that and he never adjusted.
2. Failure to take the ball to the rim at all. That was one of the things that used to drive Pop crazy. AD would constantly take a few dribbles towards the basket (either in a half court set or on a break) and then he would stop and back it out. He still does that to this day.
I hope that makes sense. He would either take it all the way to the rim for a dunk or layup or he would take about 4 dribbles in (not close enough to do anything at the rim) and then back it out.
That is what inevtiably cost him his starting job with the Spurs. How long did it take, 7 games ? In any case, Tony at 19 had a better ability to drive to the hoop and then kick the ball out to the perimeter and the Spurs decided to live with his youth and inexperience over Daniels.
As for Claxton, I think Pop loved the guy. He just couldn't stay healthy and that's been his iden y since he's been in the league.
I think our most talented backup was Beno. He has all the skills to be a very good NBA player but his toughness and lack of focus were a real problem here. Now that really must have driven Pop nuts. He loves consistency and Beno was very up and down and seemed to be cowarded if Pop got on him. Pop doesn't want guys to hang their heads when he yells at them, he wants them to respond and listen. If you understand that, you'll be fine.
As for Mason getting Hill's minutes, I understand what Pop's trying to do. He wants a rotation of his best 8 or 9 players ready to go. I love Hill's D and he's got a lot of confidence in his shot but nothing changes the fact that he is a rookie. He is going to face a whole different level of compe ion when the playoffs start and we aren't really sure of how he'll respond. I think Pop wants steady, experienced guys on the floor for as long as possible. Now is Mason the guy to handle that for us ? He hasn't floored me so far. I think he's ok at handling the ball but nowhere near how good Hill WILL BE in the future. In fact, Mason has been sloppy as of late and has turned the ball over quite a bit. Especially against Dallas.
I have a feeling Hill will see some minutes at the off guard position in the playoffs but not that much floor time as the point.
wowtimvp is usually so positive and upbeat
all I can say is that Hill's defense yesterday gave me warm fuzzies. Just in time, as Bowen is on the way out, we get this Hill, who could be even better, who deserves to be on the court for his defense alone.
I especially like Hill on the court with TP, guarding the better of the opposing guards, not that TP can't, it's just not the ideal usage of his energy. TP is a scorer, and doesn't need to be on the court with other scorers, or anymore than 2 shooters since he only dishes to the corners. TP needs to be on the court with a defensive specialist, this opens up many aspects of TP's game: TP can take more chances on the offensive end if the D is playing better, more fast breaks, he'll have fresher legs, and I'm sure there's more.
maybe Hill can be a good backup point guard too, but for now, I'd rather him be a defensive stopper and Manu be the backup PG. Manu has the second most PG skills on the team, and I'd rather see TP and Manu on the court separately as much as possible since their skills overlap so much. oh and Hill would play well with Manu too, guarding the PGs on the other end since Manu can play point well, but probably can't defend them to well.
edit: of course there's the possibility Nash just isn't that tough an assignment anymore and made Hill look good
I think Bowen's minutes are going to increase in the playoffs. Probably in place of Finley.
I hope so. Finley is a catch and shoot player. Bowen is a GREAT defensive player and also a catch and shoot player.
If Bowen isnt in the starting lineup soon......Im not gonna feel good about our chances
Vaughn defense is severely overrated. The guy plays hard, and will put his hand up on every shot, and while that is commendable, he has never locked down anybody. He's not a Bruce Bowen type of lockdown defender.
While Vaughn has the vet smarts going for him, Hill has the advantage of larger wingspan and being much more athletic. I still don't understand why Vaughn didn't just call it quits before the trade deadline, and joined the team back in as an assistant coach, and opened up a roster spot to boot.
isn't that the backup PG's main goal???
What star big, and why would the other team do it?
Tim, I hope you're wrong.
We need Hill.
Even better when he's the backup's backup.
If I had to guess, Bowen might not be moved to the starting lineup at all, but his minutes will increase should they meet LA in the WCF.
Like it or not, Bowen isn't capable of guarding Kobe effectively for 40 MPG like he could in 2003, you're probably getting effective defense on Kobe from him for 25-30 minutes on a good day.
Although not the same situation, this is similar to the finals last year when Pierce was clearly the best Kobe defender on Boston, but could only guard Kobe for so long before losing too much energy. Because of this, they put Ray Allen on Kobe for most of the 1st quarter knowing Kobe would go off but knowing his offense would peak early on and Pierce could shut him down in the 2nd half.
In he WCF last year, SA blew a big lead in game 1 because Kobe got better as the game went on. LA blew game 2 open because Kobe got hot in the 2nd half. My guess is Pop noticed this and that's why Bowen won't be defending Kobe early on.
just want to reinforce a couple things already stated. i do think pop is still in tinker mode as far as rotation is concerned. its a combination of too much missed time by the big three, along with bonner and mason stepping into roles bigger than pop had probably envisioned going into the season.
along with that though, is that fact that hill is still a rookie, and plays like one at times. hes not going to get calls that other players would get (getting popped for touch fouls on the defensive end due to his aggressive nature being the most notable). his playmaking has been impressive to me considering where he was last year at UIPUI, but he still (whether from being flustered by pressure or wanting to impress) puts too much zip on what should be simple passes, leading to fumbled balls and turnovers. hes shooting better than i thought he would, but hes still streaky, and i still question his range (along with his ability to finish at the rim).
going into the year, i was pretty sure that unless hill was tearing it up, he probably wasnt going to be part of the end game and playoff rotation anyway. best case going into the the year was what, 15 minutes per, with even less in the playoffs? hes right on pace for that now. with mason being able to handle spot minutes at pg (something more people should have seen going into the year) and manu still probably being out crunch time playmaker, this isnt unexpected. we wouldnt even be having this discussion if parker hadnt gone down, and hill stepped up the way he did.
one thing that has surprised me is the spurs 3 guard line up (parker, hill, mason) when facing smaller teams. i think that has actually worked out pretty well, and i might like to see more of it in the future. but right now, i dont have issue with seeing a reduced role for hill.
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