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Wake me when the Palestinian Authority starts investigating atrocities committed by Hamas.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm
An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.
One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.
Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.
The army has defended its conduct during the Gaza offensive but said it would investigate the testimonies.
The Israeli army has said it will investigate the soldiers' accounts.
The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.
The climate in general [was that] lives of Palestinians are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers
Soldier testimony
Analysis: Operation Miscast Lead?
Gaza war crimes probes
"[The testimonies] conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels en led to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.
Heavy civilian casualties during the three-week operation which ended in the blockaded coastal strip on 18 January provoked an international outcry.
Correspondents say the testimonies undermine Israel's claims that troops took care to protect non-combatants and accusations that Hamas militants were responsible for putting civilians into harm's way.
'Less important'
The Palestinian woman and two of her children were allegedly shot after they misunderstood instructions about which way to walk having been ordered out of their home by troops.
"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers," an infantry squad leader is quoted saying.
FROM THE BBC WORLD SERVICE
More from BBC World Service
In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.
Testimonies, which were given by combat pilots and infantry soldiers, also included allegations of unnecessary destruction of Palestinian property.
"We would throw everything out of the windows to make room and order. Everything... Refrigerators, plates, furniture. The order was to throw all of the house's contents outside," a soldier said.
One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers.
"I don't know whether she was su ious, not su ious, I don't know her story… I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder," he said.
The transcript of the session for the college's Yitzhak Rabin pre-military course, which was held last month, appeared in a newsletter published by the academy.
Israeli human rights groups have criticised the military for failing to properly investigate violations of the laws of war in Gaza despite plenty of evidence of possible war crimes.
'Moral army'
The soldiers' testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.
A wounded Palestinian child is carried into the Kamal Adwan hospital after an Israeli air strike on 11 January 2009
Palestinian civilians paid a heavy price during the three-week Israeli operation
"All the articles had one clear message," one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."
"Many soldiers' feelings were that this was a war of religion," he added.
Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.
"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.
Medical authorities say more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed during Israel's 22-day operation, including some 440 children, 110 women, and dozens of elderly people.
The stated aim was to curb rocket and mortar fire by militants from Gaza. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians were killed.
Wake me when the Palestinian Authority starts investigating atrocities committed by Hamas.
Why are you associating Hamas with the Palest. so readily? Hamas opens fire on Palestenians openly in public. They get their weapons from Iran leaving the weak palest. government defenseless. Even after all that supporting them doesn't seem to hard a task when Israel kills 1300 people in a three week span.
Some of you people are so staid it is frightening.
The P.A. is chocked full of Hamas. , Hamas = Palestinian AuthorityWhy are you associating Hamas with the Palest. so readily? Hamas opens fire on Palestenians openly in public. They get their weapons from Iran leaving the weak palest. government defenseless. Even after all that supporting them doesn't seem to hard a task when Israel kills 1300 people in a three week span.
Some of you people are so staid it is frightening.
Bit of a double standard isn't it?
Your implication that we should only be concerned about Israeli abuses if the Palestinians are investigated too smacks of hypocrisy.
Either the abuses are wrong or they aren't.
This is why people who think like you totally fail when it comes to actually fighting "terrorism".
The thing I find ironic is that you think yourself to be a moral person, but give up the powerful tool of moral authority without hesitation.
No, my implication is that the outrage is one-sided.
And, just from reading the article, it is subjective that abuses even occurred;
The first could be an accident or some other provoked action, there's no context. And in the second, the speaker "described what he saw as," leaving it open that his perspective could be subjective and have an opposing view.
Besides, both incidents are being investigated. Which has, in the past, led to the imprisonment of Israeli soldiers. Has that ever happened on the Palestinian side?
Says one of the board libs that is always quick to go the "well, GW did it too, why shouldn't Obama"?
The fletchette artillery rounds used in densely populated civilian areas are a little less subjective.
For the record:
What the Palestinians do sucks too.
Actually I don't.
I haven't used that at all, and have quite clearly criticized Obama for doing some of the same ty things that Bush did. I just don't jump up and down screaming about it for political purposes, so that tends to get buried in the fluff.
If you like, I can give you a short list of things Obama has done so far that I don't really approve of, some of the wiretapping is a start.
On the balance, I don't expect to 100% approve of everything any president does, but on the balance, Obama has started to reverse most of the things I didn't like that Bush did.
Why are you associating Hamas with the Palest. so readily? Hamas opens fire on Palestenians openly in public. They get their weapons from Iran leaving the weak palest. government defenseless. Even after all that supporting them doesn't seem to hard a task when Israel kills 1300 people in a three week span.
Some of you people are so staid it is frightening.
Israeli's are just as bad as Hamas. Some of the crap they've alledgedly (most never even investigated because they don't believe Palestinian testimony is trustworthy) done is horrendous, even before this.
We need to soften our support of Israel, but no one wants to be seen as abandoning the "Holy Land."
Dude that is the general consensus on this board. Everybody knows that, even in washington i mean them pretending not to acknowledge that is not because they are dumb, its because it has a purpose. When you see Olmert brag about how he made Bush follow his orders its not hard to realize we aren't among the tertiary consumers we claim to be.
Just to put it all in context, Yoni will maintain to this day that the US never tortured anyone. I would put that in the same category as I put his surmise that Israel has committed no war crimes whatsoever in Gaza. It proceeds against the plain evidence: the use of white phosphorus, to take one very accessible example.
yup, I clearly remembered that, and up till that point the Israeli governemtn claimed they never used it. For most Americans to follow so blindly in Israel's lead is ignorance.
It's the fact that Israel investigates these issues, has an independent judicial branch, that their own military has a checks&balances system, etc, that gives them the moral authority in this confrontation - and making any attempt to put both parts as equivalent a moral and political error.
Let me ask you all this question:
Do you think that if the Palestinians never attack/provoke Israel again, would Israel ever attack the Palestinians ever again? I believe the answer would be "no". I think that there will be peace in the region if Hamas/Palestinians never bothered Israel again.
Yet, the Palestinians fire rockets into Israel, send suicide bombers and capture (and then kill ) Israeli soldiers in exchange for a large number of incarcerated terrorists. THey blow up schools, cafes, etc. Hamas will never stop until it captures all of Israel. the Palestinians were offered half of Israel not that long ago, yet Arafat declined, because it wasn't "all of Israel"
I don't think that Hamas wants peace at all. If Hamas captures all of Israel, and there's peace, then, what's next? Hamas has to impliment a government, give people jobs, ins ue schools, support the people etc. Even right now, why is Hamas so concentrated on fighting, rather then improving the conditions in which the Palestinian people live. However, all woes of the PAlestinians are ISrael's fault. If there's no Israel and no fighting, and the State of PAlestine fails, then who is accountable?
Get an education:
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
And, before you judge it propaganda, please be prepared to say which points are untrue. I think you will have difficulty doing so.
...in which they confront the criminality of command, and the cruelty of their own conduct. War is , right?
Has any such attempt really been made in the thread? The crimes of both sides can be tallied without any reference to respective moral stature.
LOL
These guys are such bas ization mini america....it's like
obama says 'i ed up' and americans let it go, so let's try that too, with war atrocities, that everyone already knew we committed
Lame.
The larger issue is Israeli expansion into land the Palestinians claim (all those immigrants from Russia gotta live somewhere)....if Israel stopped the expansion and gave up control of Palestinian land....Do you think that if the Palestinians never attack/provoke Israel again, would Israel ever attack the Palestinians ever again? I believe the answer would be "no". I think that there will be peace in the region if Hamas/Palestinians never bothered Israel again.
...into disputed territories...Hamas has rockets that could reach Tel Aviv and other Israel cities, but your not hearing about rocket attacks into these cities...Yet, the Palestinians fire rockets into Israel
They already do some of that, they are a political party in Lebanon after all....Hamas has to impliment a government, give people jobs, ins ue schools, support the people etc.
I was ing about the government not paying any attention (in terms of doing something about it) and just bringing up that this is a drop in the bucket. EVERYONE I know (except a handful of very religious people who have the near standard "All Islamics are terrorists" though) thinks the same thing.
I find it disturbing that that high a percentage of people I know think that, yet it will still continue to be the case. Like SS reform, etc. People want it, but no politician wants to be the one to push it.
Sderot, struck by over 7,500 rockets since 2001 is in Israel proper and has never been in a "disputed" territory -- unless, of course, you take the position of Hamas who says all of Israel is in dispute and that the Jews should be run into the ocean...etc...with which, I gather, Nbadan concurs.
No, I wouldn't maintain that. I'm sure we have...depending, of course, on your definition of torture.
In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, there is a right and wrong side of the issue. I believe Israel is in the right for wanting to repel the over sixty years of continual aggression perpetrated against it by the Arab community.
War is and, from time to time, participants use what are charitably called extreme measures to combat their enemies...sometimes out of desperation. Unfortunately, Hamas (and Hezbollah, to the North) have decided to cowardly embed themselves in populated areas, using schools and homes as weapons depots and launch sites, giving Israel a choice between risking high collateral damage or doing nothing while the Palestinians continue their reign of terror against them.
I'm still waiting for an example of where the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Hezbollah, or any other Arab organization has investigated and/or punished one of their own for atrocities against an Israeli -- or, , one of their own citizens.
It doesn't happen. In fact, they kidnap and torture -- for no apparent gain -- Israeli soldiers and they summarily execute those, in their own ranks, over mere su ion of collaboration with Israel. And, showing any sympathy with the Israeli position is seen as collaboration.
I'll allow the contradiction to stand. Yoni apparently wants to have it both ways.
In your view, Israel wears a white hat and all its anti-Arab actions are warrantably defensive. This reading of history is a bit one-sided to say the least.
Collateral damage is forced by the tactics of Hamas. Sure. What this has to do with soldiers being ordered to shoot down unarmed crones, eludes me.War is and, from time to time, participants use what are charitably called extreme measures to combat their enemies...sometimes out of desperation. Unfortunately, Hamas (and Hezbollah, to the North) have decided to cowardly embed themselves in populated areas, using schools and homes as weapons depots and launch sites, giving Israel a choice between risking high collateral damage or doing nothing while the Palestinians continue their reign of terror against them.
Oh, and desperation is not a moral waiver.
Strawman. Who has denied this? Israel, much to its credit, is still a functioning democracy and holds its officers to account.I'm still waiting for an example of where the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Hezbollah, or any other Arab organization has investigated and/or punished one of their own for atrocities against an Israeli -- or, , one of their own citizens.
But when Shin Bet kidnaps and tortures, that is legitmate law enforcement?It doesn't happen. In fact, they kidnap and torture -- for no apparent gain -- Israeli soldiers and they summarily execute those, in their own ranks, over mere su ion of collaboration with Israel. And, showing any sympathy with the Israeli position is seen as collaboration.
You say there is no apparent gain when Hamas does it, but didn't the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit give Hamas standing to negotiate with Israel? I'd say this counterexample somewhat undermines your theory that moral depravity is at the bottom of everything Hamas does.
Regardless, wearing the white cap of "morality" isn't carte blanche. It comes with strings, and you are correct to point out that a form of such accountability does exist in Israel. That soldiers will reveal illegal orders publicly underscores their moral stature: for some, moral straightness trumps esprit de corps.
Last edited by Winehole23; 03-21-2009 at 05:48 PM.
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