Can't wait for $5-6 gas, Geithner calling out Oil and Gas industry

[ducks]

what they need is to make more oil refianiers
ouch that hurts the climate
TOUGH
so does building a transit public system for everyone one in the usa

[mogrovejo]

Subsidies are better than selective tax breaks. The rationale provided to this decision is pretty pathetic though. And the situation will remain cloudy, with some companies paying royalties and getting tax credits...

Anyway, this is a tax on the consumer. Oil companies will only be a proxy. The most ridiculous thing is that ethanol producers are still receiving millions in subsidies and they aren't doing anything. Pretty bizarre.


Most European transit public systems are a disgrace. A good rule of thumb is that if it has to be the government to promote and pay for a mass transit system, then it's a bad decision and it's not needed.

This administration is nuts. They're increasing government revenue and spending when they should be doing the exact opposite and as soon as possible. History won't be nice to these guys.

[RandomGuy]

prove it oil will run out

It would be more accurate to say that cheap oil will run out within about 20 years.

And by cheap I mean less than $200 for a barrel of oil, inflation adjusted to todays dollars.

I have a strong gut feeling that we will see $200 barrels of oil within 10 years, but will be more conservative in my estimate and put that out to the 10-20 year range.

As for why, I have already explained why.

[RandomGuy]

Most European transit public systems are a disgrace.

Link?

Elaborate?

Europeans tend to be quite happy with their mass transit.

I think on a per capita basis they probably spend MUCH less on transportation expense as a result.

The reason we don't do mass transit in the US is that our cities are much less dense because of cheap gasoline and cars.

Take away cheap gasoline, as is certain to happen, and you will see US cities become more dense, and therefore mass transit become MUCH more cost compe ive.

[RandomGuy]

Bump.

Just cause.

[Wild Cobra]

[/QUOTE]

Um, no.

Your statement that somehow the government is making four times as much money as the shareholders shows that you calculated that by dividing 41.93% by 10.77%.

No, I was taking the percentages for different places. the governments do make more than shareholders because of gasoline taxes as well. Why are you reading in what I didn't say?

This mis-represents what those numbers actually are.

Profit margin is calculated on gross revenue. Namely net income (revenues minus expenses) divided by total revenues.

Tax rates are calculated on net income, not total revenues. That 47% represents a fraction of the 10.77%, not 47% of total revenues as your statement would imply.

Tax rate on net income is (net income percentage * tax rate) .1077*.4193= 4.5% of revenues.

Or put another way, 58.07% of the profit would be available to distribute to shareholders (most companies don't distribute 100% of the profit, but use a good chunk to re-invest)

Shareholders got roughly 150% of what the government did, not 25%.

Go look at the balance sheet yourself instead of misapplying what you say I don't understand. I specified which category I used for what. Maybe it is inaccurate terminology as I applied it, but the numbers as I presented them are real.

I never said or implied about 25% from the book numbers. I specifically mention the 4 to 8 cents profit per gallon vs. the 18.4 cents federal road tax. then there is a state per gallon tax also. The feds and states not only take income taxes, but per gallon taxes too. With that in mind, tell me that the oil companies make more per gallon in profit than the government does.

Sorry if what I said is confusing.

[xrayzebra]

"why?"

because it would, as shown for decades in Europe, force down consumption, even fairly rapidly, while driving up research into althernative fuels like cellulosic ethanol or other renewabl plant-derived fuel, and into greater mileage.

It's pretty clear the US is puerile, stupid, and incapable of mature, responsible decisions while pursing unfettered, greedy, short-term "gimme gimme gimme" consumerism.

The first, basic principle that the US understands is money and materialism. Nothing else matters. High fuel prices would force US into lower fuel consumption, since the US refuses to lower fuel consumption voluntarily, like an adult.

Boutons, you are obviously the most ignorant posters on this board.
When is the last time you were in Europe? The last time I was there,
there was no leveling off in consumption.

You have to pay a daily/monthly fee to drive in downtown London and
you cant hardly get down side streets for the cars.

Also, how much research is Europe doing on all these alternative
fuels? Let me see. They have had sky high fuel prices for longer than
you have been alive and no alternatives have been even gotten close
to.

Were you around during WWII? They used alternative fuels, not very
good ones, but it got them around. Funny thing happen when
oil came back, they went back to it. Wonder why. By the way that
was over 60 years ago.

[xrayzebra]

That is so... wrong on many levels.

Oil will not really run out in my lifetime, but it will get astronomically more expensive as demand outstrips a deminishing supply.

Most of the big, easily tapped sources are running out, leaving a lot of more marginal, quickly used up, oil fields.

Meaning that to maintain current levels of production, we have to spend more effort (i.e. energy) in the first place to make more wells in more hard to get to places.

Sure, they occasionally find a big, easy to tap/exploit field now and then, but those finds are happening at a rate far less than the big, easy to tap fields are becoming depleted.

Anybody who makes a straight-line assumption that the future of oil/gas/coal will be the same as the past does not fully comprehend that things are changing and the pace of that change will accelerate.

Personally, I would like to have some money spent now on research while energy is fairly cheap to get ahead of the curve a bit, than to really wait until gas is $5-$10 per gallon and get caught with our pants down.

We don't have to replace oil/gas/coal by next year, but putting some money into research will allow us to have some data and ready-made ideas so we don't have to scramble in what will be a crisis for things that might work.

I would rather lay the groundwork and do some practical experiments that provide us with some reasonable solutions for that time.

RG, much research is going on, at taxpayers expense, now. I am sure
oil companies will be quite happy, and you know it, to invest how ever
much it takes to develop a new source of energy when someone
comes up with a idea that REALLY works.

I personally think the fuel cell, somewhere down the line, may be
the answer. But the dumb-ass idea of a plug in car is a long, long
way for reality. Alternate fuels, right now, do not exist.

Anyhow, where do people think the power comes from for these plugins?
Mother goose. Carbon based fuels.

[xrayzebra]

Link?

Elaborate?

Europeans tend to be quite happy with their mass transit.

I think on a per capita basis they probably spend MUCH less on transportation expense as a result.

The reason we don't do mass transit in the US is that our cities are much less dense because of cheap gasoline and cars.

Take away cheap gasoline, as is certain to happen, and you will see US cities become more dense, and therefore mass transit become MUCH more cost compe ive.

The underground in London, only one I am well acquainted with, is
decent. Especially in winter time, warm. But their bus system
sucks, unless you want to spend hours riding at 10 MPH and stopping
every block or two and freezing your butt off in wintertime.

[xrayzebra]

On taxing the Oil or any other corporation. Ha-ha-ha. Enties do not pay taxes.
People do. Prices just go up to cover the taxes. A good article on what I am saying
is below. By Dr. Walter Williams.

http://townhall.com/columnists/Walte...rosperity_lost

[clambake]

how ya doin, ray?

[xrayzebra]

how ya doin, ray?

Great since Obama got elected. Have you noticed how the
economy has picked up. Lots of bonuses out there for everyone.

Just think how much good he going to do for the health and education
in country.........

[clambake]

Great since Obama got elected. Have you noticed how the
economy has picked up. Lots of bonuses out there for everyone.

Just think how much good he going to do for the health and education
in country.........

how much good he going to do?

[RandomGuy]

No, I was taking the percentages for different places. the governments do make more than shareholders because of gasoline taxes as well. Why are you reading in what I didn't say?


Go look at the balance sheet yourself instead of misapplying what you say I don't understand. I specified which category I used for what. Maybe it is inaccurate terminology as I applied it, but the numbers as I presented them are real.

I never said or implied about 25% from the book numbers. I specifically mention the 4 to 8 cents profit per gallon vs. the 18.4 cents federal road tax. then there is a state per gallon tax also. The feds and states not only take income taxes, but per gallon taxes too. With that in mind, tell me that the oil companies make more per gallon in profit than the government does.

Sorry if what I said is confusing.

Looks like to me that the government is directly making about 4 times as much money as the share holders profit.

I have no clue on what you are basing this statement.

It seemed like you were basing the statement on the fact that their profit margin was 10% and the corporate tax rate was 40%

40 is 4 times 10, so I assumed that was what you meant.

Is it?

[RandomGuy]

Pharmacuetical companies spend a lot on R & D so they can have a new drug in the pipeline to replace the old drugs whose patents expire, and keep making money.

We are going to run out of cheap oil, and as a nation should tax oil for R & D efforts aimed at figuring out what to do after we run out of oil. I want that solution in the pipeline, and I want it started while energy is still fairly cheap.

Otherwise we will collectively get caught with our pants around our ankles when oil shoots into the stratosphere.

[boutons_]

"Pharmacuetical companies spend a lot on R & D"

About $30B/year, but they spend more where it really brings in the $Bs, and that's on marketing, about $60B/year.

Their new drugs fail, they suppress the BigPharma-run tests, and sell the new drugs as more effective, and much more expensive, than the old drugs, but they aren't better.

BigPharma is just another corporate criminal scam, vacuuming 100s of $Bs out of Americans' pockets.