Rotations

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I think one of the major reasons we are out of sorts right now, beside the obvious injury problems, is that Pop has tinkered with the rotations to the point that everyone is confused about their roles now. He's been playing Ime to see what he can give, Fab and Gooden the same, and then there's the shmozzle at backup PG (c'mon Pop, trust in Hill! He'll get it done), and all the juggling has put everyone off their game.

The problem Pop has is that a bunch of his role players are performing okay with no standouts right now:

Who backs up at PG? I, and most of you seemingly, would go with Hill, but Beno has left Pop gun-shy about rookie backup PGs in the playoffs, so he's using Mason unsuccessfully.

Who do you start out of Finley and Udoka? Both are hot and cold, world beaters one moment, horrible the next. Then, who do you play out of Finley/Udoka/Bowen? One of them is going to have to sit for chemistry's sake, but who? I say go with what worked - Finley starts, Bowen plays when the other team has a guy getting hot, Ime sits.

Who do you play from Bonner/KT/Fab/Gooden? Starting Matt makes sense as he spreads the floor for Tim and Tony, but KT is our best big not named Big Fundamental. Gooden can score, but is often lost on D, and mistake-prone, and Fab has looked good in limited minutes lately.

I say go with what worked when the team was clicking:

Parker --> Hill
Mason --> Manu
Finley --> Bowen
Duncan --> (Gooden, to shorten Tim's minutes in the run up to the playoffs, and call 4-down for him fer cryin out loud!)
Bonner --> KT

How do you shorten that rotation? Not sure it can be done.

Pop'd better settle it down, and quickly, to re-establish some chemistry, or we're a danger for a first round flameout.

Thoughts?

[Manufan909]

Parker --> Hill
Mason --> Manu
Ime(one last chance)Finley --> Bowen
Duncan --> (Gooden, and call 4-down for him fer cryin out loud!)
Bonner --> KT

How do you shorten that rotation? Not sure it can be done.

Pop'd better settle it down, and quickly, to re-establish some chemistry, or we're a danger for a first round flameout.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Sounds good. Hope Gooden gets the hang of the D by the POs, but he has almost no time to learn, and unless the 3-5 seeds start losing streaks and the Spurs do the opposite, there won't be many games to put in Gooden that don't effect the standings. Manu coming back alone should end the Mason PG experiment, and make Gooden look REALLY good.

[MaNu4Tres]

OR Maybe we are 7-6 the past 13 games because our number 1 go to go is hurt and is putting up 15 points on 43 percent shooting and is a step slow in his defensive rotations due to his injury?

[loveforthegame]

Great post. I was talking about this with my friends while watching the game tonight.

I can see if Pop was doing this lineup tinkering in the beginning of the season but it seems silly and confusing at this point.

The lineup you have is the exact one I want to see. It's tough because Udoka has been playing better and Oberto has even been ok in short stints here and there. Not sure where Vaughn fits because Pop has hardly looked at him. Make quick subs as needed but stop with the tinkering.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

OR Maybe we are 7-6 the past 13 games because our number 1 go to go is hurt and is putting up 15 points on 43 percent shooting and is a step slow in his defensive rotations due to his injury?

I mentioned the injury factor, but to me it's chemistry, they look out of sorts, and when it comes to the Spurs that's usually about role confusion.

As for Tim, he hasn't been our number one go to guy for 2 years, TP and Manu have taken over that role. But yes, Tim being hurt isn't helping. That's why I'd play Gooden half a game and call offense for him - take the stress off Tim, and see if he can be useful.

Today in the 4th (3rd?) we saw a 4-down called for Drew and it ended in 2 FTs. More of that please!

[timvp]

[timvp]

P.S.

I'll actually read this thread in a little bit.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Yeah, timvp I'd like to know how you would shorten the rotation, because that needs to happen, and NOW.

Do you start Udoka and send Fin to the doghouse?

Do you trust in Gooden and relegate Fab?

I'm tempted to say yes to both, although in the OP I said stick with Fin... I'm conflicted, just like Pop obviously is!

[TDMVPDPOY]

bowen currently is useless, and only effective in short stints in the game guarding the opposing teams best perimeter player.

as for udoka and finley, i say you change them around each game......they will have to play good to get more minutes or sit teh down, they are actually competing against each other, hopefully the fire is in there for UDOKA since its a contract year.

[MaNu4Tres]

I mentioned the injury factor, but to me it's chemistry, they look out of sorts, and when it comes to the Spurs that's usually about role confusion.

As for Tim, he hasn't been our number one go to guy for 2 years, TP and Manu have taken over that role. But yes, Tim being hurt isn't helping. That's why I'd play Gooden half a game and call offense for him - take the stress off Tim, and see if he can be useful.

Today in the 4th (3rd?) we saw a 4-down called for Drew and it ended in 2 FTs. More of that please!

Tim has his equal share of touches as Manu and Tony. Being that Tim usually opened up everything for everyone including Manu and Tony by being an efficient monster inside. Now that is not the case as his footwork and quickness have dissipated due to this injury.

I think Tim is the main reason for our struggles. But I do agree with you, we don't have any standout consistent performers out of our role players. Against bad teams Mason gets looks and performs well. Thats all good and gravy. Unfortunatly against good teams who have Mason scouted, that is simply not the case as they try to make him put the ball on the floor. The rotations are a mess. No one is really consistent. The only solution to that problem I think is to play your most talented players and the players who have proved they will go to war year in and year out.
Yes Udoka and Oberto have showed life recently. But lets get real. How consistent have they been all year? and realistically do you believe udoka will produce more than bowen? do you think oberto will produce more than gooden? NO and NO...

Parker Hill Manu Mason Finley Bowen Tim Gooden Kurt Bonner ...those 10 will give us the best chance to win. Give and take their minutes according to matchups.

[Spursmania]

Pop needs to get his rotations straight. The guys do seem out of sorts out there.

[lurker23]

Good OP.

My (perhaps overly optimistic) hope is that once Manu gets back, Pop will say, "Okay, now I've seen what everyone can do and I have everyone on the floor; time to set up my playoff rotation."

[KenGee21]

I still say with Duncan not able to anchor the defense like he did in the past, you can't start both Finley and Bonner because there is an immediate drop-off in our defense.

Whatever benefit we gain from their outside shooting doesn't compensate for this deficiency, especially when considering who they match-up with at the 2,3, & 4 spots on teams like the Lakers, Rockets, etc.

IMO having either Thomas or Bowen starting in place of Finley or Bonner would give the team a more balanced attack on both ends of the floor.

[SequSpur]

you guys think you know everything....

[NRHector]

We are also risking that Tony might run out of gas in the playoffs, he is young but the guy has been working over-time with Tim and Manu injuries I just hope that is not the case, I hope he can get some rest also.

[SequSpur]

We are also risking that Tony might run out of gas in the playoffs, he is young but the guy has been working over-time with Tim and Manu injuries I just hope that is not the case, I hope he can get some rest also.

unlike Every other month Manu and Old ass Timmay... Parker's got this ...

you heard it from me first...

[NRHector]

unlike Every other month Manu and Old ass Timmay... Parker's got this ...

you heard it from me first...

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Good post.
It depends on matchups of course but the way I'd like it would be something like :

PG - 48 mins
Tony : 36-38 and Hill : 10-12. If Hill struggles then Manu should get a few mins there, unless it messes up the swingmen rotation. In this case go with Vaughn.

Swingmen - 96 mins
Starters - Mason ( ~28 mins ) and Fin ( ~20 mins ). If Finley starts cold it usually indicates he's having one of his ghost games, just bench him and give his minutes to Bowen/Mason/Manu depending on matchups.
Subs - Manu ( ~28 mins ) and Bowen ( ~20 mins ). Ime would probably get a few minutes depending on matchups and in case of smallball. Under no cir stances do I want Fin as a 4 in a small ball stint.
Also, Hill could see some minutes at the 2 position at some point, pairing him with Parker has proved to work in certain conditions. Not so much with Manu though, for some reason.

Bigs - 96 mins
Starters - Tim ( ~36 mins ) and Bonner ( ~20 mins ). Depending on the opponent I'd go with Thomas as a starter too, but not if this means we'd get Bonner and Gooden playing at the same time even for 1 minute.
Subs - Thomas ( ~22 mins ) and Gooden ( ~18 mins ). Oberto could help also if needed or in case of foul trouble.Hopefully we would not see smallball too much.

To summarize this is a 10-man rotation, which I'm not sure Pop would like. I'd expect him to go 8 or 9 men deep in each game ( unless it's a blowout ) depending on matchups. This possibly means that Hill will be out of the rotation most of the time. Not sure which big would have to be out if Pop decides to use 3 bigs only or play smallball.

[stéphane]

I'm not sold on a fixed rotation.
You have to adapt to matchups as we have situational role players (bigs for example).
You may want Hill to defend a thin SG and make him work. You want to play Bonner if we're getting crushed inside just to give him his minutes?
That said, Pop's choices are mostly horrible right now.
Hope it changes as soon as Manu is back.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Great replies people, nice analysis in classic ST form.

Tim has his equal share of touches as Manu and Tony. Being that Tim usually opened up everything for everyone including Manu and Tony by being an efficient monster inside. Now that is not the case as his footwork and quickness have dissipated due to this injury.

I think Tim is the main reason for our struggles. But I do agree with you, we don't have any standout consistent performers out of our role players. Against bad teams Mason gets looks and performs well. Thats all good and gravy. Unfortunatly against good teams who have Mason scouted, that is simply not the case as they try to make him put the ball on the floor. The rotations are a mess. No one is really consistent. The only solution to that problem I think is to play your most talented players and the players who have proved they will go to war year in and year out.
Yes Udoka and Oberto have showed life recently. But lets get real. How consistent have they been all year? and realistically do you believe udoka will produce more than bowen? do you think oberto will produce more than gooden? NO and NO...

Parker Hill Manu Mason Finley Bowen Tim Gooden Kurt Bonner ...those 10 will give us the best chance to win. Give and take their minutes according to matchups.

The question is whether you take "produce more" to mean 'produce more stats', or play better with the other 4 guys. The two are not always the same thing. For example, Fab lately looks very much in sync with the guys he's out there with, but doesn't produce much in the way of statistical impact. That being said, you are right and nail it in that final paragraph, those 10 are our best chance to win.

Good OP.

My (perhaps overly optimistic) hope is that once Manu gets back, Pop will say, "Okay, now I've seen what everyone can do and I have everyone on the floor; time to set up my playoff rotation."

That sounds about right to me. I bet we'll have a settled rotation by 7 or 8 games to go in the season.

We are also risking that Tony might run out of gas in the playoffs, he is young but the guy has been working over-time with Tim and Manu injuries I just hope that is not the case, I hope he can get some rest also.

True, he's been doing a lot of work, but he's also in the prime of his career and I'm not worried about his motor come playoff time and no b-2-bs. Just stay healthy, TP!

Good post.
It depends on matchups of course but the way I'd like it would be something like :

PG - 48 mins
Tony : 36-38 and Hill : 10-12. If Hill struggles then Manu should get a few mins there, unless it messes up the swingmen rotation. In this case go with Vaughn.

Swingmen - 96 mins
Starters - Mason ( ~28 mins ) and Fin ( ~20 mins ). If Finley starts cold it usually indicates he's having one of his ghost games, just bench him and give his minutes to Bowen/Mason/Manu depending on matchups.
Subs - Manu ( ~28 mins ) and Bowen ( ~20 mins ). Ime would probably get a few minutes depending on matchups and in case of smallball. Under no cir stances do I want Fin as a 4 in a small ball stint.
Also, Hill could see some minutes at the 2 position at some point, pairing him with Parker has proved to work in certain conditions. Not so much with Manu though, for some reason.

Bigs - 96 mins
Starters - Tim ( ~36 mins ) and Bonner ( ~20 mins ). Depending on the opponent I'd go with Thomas as a starter too, but not if this means we'd get Bonner and Gooden playing at the same time even for 1 minute.
Subs - Thomas ( ~22 mins ) and Gooden ( ~18 mins ). Oberto could help also if needed or in case of foul trouble.Hopefully we would not see smallball too much.

To summarize this is a 10-man rotation, which I'm not sure Pop would like. I'd expect him to go 8 or 9 men deep in each game ( unless it's a blowout ) depending on matchups. This possibly means that Hill will be out of the rotation most of the time. Not sure which big would have to be out if Pop decides to use 3 bigs only or play smallball.

Great post. Only thing I'd change is more time to Gooden and more rest for Timmy, if he wants it. I think Tim pretty much decides when he wants to play from now on in - he's the best judge of how to manage his injury as it's about pain more than anything. He did this today - played when he was needed, and he can do that against the lesser teams from here on in.

Also, Gooden - I want to see him fed 4-downs, y'know, 3-4 of them in a short stretch, early in the game. Let him attack the other team's backup bigs! He's a very solid post-up guy, and they should just run the play the same way as the would for Timmy. Play to his strength, for cryin out loud!

I'm not sold on a fixed rotation.
You have to adapt to matchups as we have situational role players (bigs for example).
You may want Hill to defend a thin SG and make him work. You want to play Bonner if we're getting crushed inside just to give him his minutes?
That said, Pop's choices are mostly horrible right now.
Hope it changes as soon as Manu is back.

No, there shouldn't be a fixed rotation. Of course, it takes judgment and that is the nature of Pop's job, but he has to drop 2-3 guys from the rotation so that the rest can know who they're playing with regularly and get their chemistry back.

[Agloco]

I think one of the major reasons we are out of sorts right now, beside the obvious injury problems, is that Pop has tinkered with the rotations to the point that everyone is confused about their roles now. He's been playing Ime to see what he can give, Fab and Gooden the same, and then there's the shmozzle at backup PG (c'mon Pop, trust in Hill! He'll get it done), and all the juggling has put everyone off their game.

The problem Pop has is that a bunch of his role players are performing okay with no standouts right now:

Who backs up at PG? I, and most of you seemingly, would go with Hill, but Beno has left Pop gun-shy about rookie backup PGs in the playoffs, so he's using Mason unsuccessfully.

Who do you start out of Finley and Udoka? Both are hot and cold, world beaters one moment, horrible the next. Then, who do you play out of Finley/Udoka/Bowen? One of them is going to have to sit for chemistry's sake, but who? I say go with what worked - Finley starts, Bowen plays when the other team has a guy getting hot, Ime sits.

Who do you play from Bonner/KT/Fab/Gooden? Starting Matt makes sense as he spreads the floor for Tim and Tony, but KT is our best big not named Big Fundamental. Gooden can score, but is often lost on D, and mistake-prone, and Fab has looked good in limited minutes lately.

I say go with what worked when the team was clicking:

Parker --> Hill
Mason --> Manu
Finley --> Bowen
Duncan --> (Gooden, to shorten Tim's minutes in the run up to the playoffs, and call 4-down for him fer cryin out loud!)
Bonner --> KT

How do you shorten that rotation? Not sure it can be done.

Pop'd better settle it down, and quickly, to re-establish some chemistry, or we're a danger for a first round flameout.

Thoughts?

Hit the nail on the head. I'm glad someone else noticed the lack of consistency by both Pop and the players.

Thing is, Manu is the key to pretty much every rotation issue except at C/PF. He solves a lot of PG issues once he's back. The second unit won't struggle nearly as much with him creating out there. Everyone will be amazed at how Finley, Bonner and Mason all of a sudden have a resurgence.

[Horse]

We desperatly need rebounding so I'm going Duncan, Gooden, Bowen, Mase, Parker. Great mix of offense and defense. Then the second unit with Kt and Ime playing well throw in Manu, Fin, Hill, Or just mix and match and we're real solid

[Solid D]

[polandprzem]

you guys think you know everything....

Do you THINK?

[DAF86]

Playoffs line-up should be:

Tony-Manu-Bowen-Duncan-Gooden (I would give Drew now the chance to start 'till the end of the regular season, play him 30-35 minutes per game, let him make mistakes, call plays for him, boost his confidence. We need this guy to play a major role to get out of the west. If he plays like all this time 'till the start of the playoffs then bench him, but at least give him a chance to show what he's got.)

Bench rotation players: Hill, Mason, Bonner and Kurt.