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Molten salt is not an uncommon heat transfer medium in certain commodity chemical processes.
I have direct work experience both in molten salt systems and in solar power. I'm calling your bluff. Concede.
Solar cells on the roof of your house and localized storage are smart.
solar power plants are stupid.
And sure, acids are corrosive but with molten salts you are not only talking about dealing with corrosion resistance, but it also has to be able to withstand the 1000 degree temps...
The whole thing is about creating an exotic and expensive storage solution just to make a bad initial project premise work.
Molten salt is not an uncommon heat transfer medium in certain commodity chemical processes.
I have direct work experience both in molten salt systems and in solar power. I'm calling your bluff. Concede.
Slamming 24 ounce malt liquors at the beach doesn't qualify as experience in salt and solar systems.
Ok, I have to give credit... that was a pretty good line. But if you had replaced "Malt liquors" with "Margaritas", then you would have had gold.
I don't think malt liquor comes in amounts that small.
You work in a freaking fab shop and you thought that was going to be enough to snow everybody over. Oops.
The downside to solar power right now is that silicon photovoltaics are not all that efficient. You have to have the panels spread out over a large area to capture enough sunlight to make meaningful quan ies of electricity. You need a place that has a lot of sunlight. You need a place that has low humidity, because humidity scatters the light more. Deserts qualify for all three of those requirements: wide-open, sunny, dry.
Solar-grade silicon is also a relatively expensive material (though talented engineers are working on changing that), so if somebody could find a way to concentrate the sunlight onto a smaller area of silicon, that would provide an advantage. A parabolic mirror does the trick. It helps to have the aforementioned wide-open area to accomodate these large mirrors. It is certainly more feasible to do that on an industrial scale than to do that on somebody's home.
Maybe when those talented engineers get the price down far enough, home-scale solar power can really take off. The talented engineers will like that because that probably means a bigger bonus.
Molten salt is highly corrosive, like a lot of common process chemicals are, but its heat-transfer properties in some applications are so advantageous as to justify the cost of the nickel-based alloys (moving back into an area where you are not talking out of your rectum quite so much) that hold up reasonably well in the service. I've seen far, far nastier streams that could eat up any grade of Hastelloy you want to throw at them in three months. Molten salt is nothing.
Maybe, but I'll bet it will be driven by the productive sector, not govt.
JPL laid the ground work in the 1970's.
I thought two guys at Bell Labs started it in the early 1950's.
Cheap solar-grade silicon? Nope.
Trinity University got a big federal grant to do a big parabolic array on their gymnasium/student center. Even with a lower temperature and non-corrosive fluid they could NEVER keep it operating. After about three years they literally junked the multi million dollar system.
Thank you for your anecdote.
I have an anecdote too.
There was once this guy on an internet forum who worked in a fab shop. He always talks about the stock market and finance, so maybe he's a white-collar employee or a manager, but for all I know I sweeps the floors. He tried to pass himself off as an expert in a couple technical fields, where I actually am an expert, and was so vain he couldn't back down. After about twenty minutes he pretty much established himself as a complete bag.
From that, I can conclude that guys who do metal work in their garages are fine, but everyone who works in a fab shop is a bag.
BTW, I don't "work in a fab shop" but apparently you feel that your vast experience grants you the right to sneer at anyone that disagrees with you.
Maybe someone will eventually build a working model of a parabolic array using molten salts as a storage medium, but it will be a similar human accomplishment to climbing Mount Everest...yeah, it's noble and took an amazing amount of effort but the basic question still arises...Why the would anyone want to do it?
Quick question? Are you a college graduate?
Because most people aren't nihilists.Why the would anyone want to do it?
Quoted for hilarity.
I don't sneer at someone who disagrees with me. I sneer at someone who plays the "expert" card, like you did with ballijuana. "Oh I know more about this than you do, let me throw around some technical jargon." You can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, so you baffle 'em with bull . And you thought it would shut everybody up. Oh, how smug you were.
So it turns out there is somebody who actually knows what he is talking about, who could call you out on it, and now that the shoe is on the other foot, you don't like it so much.
You got exposed as a fraud.
And it's so typically Republican too. You don't actually know jack about anything, but you figure you can throw out enough smart-sounding BS to trick the average layman. They do it with economics, foreign relations, social issues, what have you.
And you won't quit either. Just like Republicans won't stop with their vapid talking points, you'll go on making it sound like a relatively common industrial process being applied in a new way is 'Mount Everest.' Except, unlike Republicans, you're not lying as a means to an end. You're lying simply because you're too narcissistic to back down.
Yes, If it really makes a difference I am a college graduate with a hybrid engineering/construction degree and graduated summma laude.
And my company actually works on industrial heat exchange processes, steam, hot oil, etc. both in the structural pressure vessel side and the control side. And I don't sweep the floor, I own the mother er.
This is not a trait that is exclusive to Republicans ES and you know it.
I think ES is bluffing. Take him down, CC.
You go girl.
Honestly, this is great. I read a lot, but lack the real technical expertise to really effectively evaluate a lot of this stuff.
Here is one thing, and I would appreciate your thoughts on this:
http://www.sandia.gov/Renewable_Ener...NSTTF/salt.htm
They seem to think it is feasible.Advantages of Using Molten Salt
A variety of fluids was tested to transport the sun's heat, including water, air, oil, and sodium, before molten salt was selected as best. Molten salt is used in solar power tower systems because it is liquid at atmosphere pressure, it provides an efficient, low-cost medium in which to store thermal energy, its operating temperatures are compatible with todays high-pressure and high-temperature steam turbines, and it is non-flammable and nontoxic. In addition, molten salt is used in the chemical and metals industries as a heat-transport fluid, so experience with molten-salt systems exists for non-solar applications.
The molten salt is a mixture of 60 percent sodium nitrate and 40 percent potassium-nitrate, commonly called saltpeter. The salt melts at 430 F and is kept liquid at 550 F in an insulated cold storage tank. The salt is them pumped to the top of the tower, where concentrated sunlight heats it in a receiver to 1050 F. The receiver is a series of thin-walled stainless steel tubes. The heated salt then flow back down to a second insulated hot storage tank. The size of this tank depends on the requirements of the utility; tanks can be designed with enough capacity to power a turbine from two to twelve hours. When electricity is needed from the plant, the hot salt is pumped to a conventional steam-generating system to produce superheated steam for a turbine/generator.
The uniqueness of this solar system is in de-coupling the collection of solar energy from producing power, electricity can be generated in periods of inclement weather or even at night using the stored thermal energy in the hot salt tank. The tanks are well insulated and can store energy for up to a week. As an example of their size, tanks that provide enough thermal storage to power a 100-megawatt turbine for four hours would be about 30 feet tall and 80 feet in diameter. Studies show that the two-tank storage system could have an annual efficiency of about 99 percent.
Could ceramic piping be a potential solution that might overcome the corrosive salts? More exotic carbon fibers? (zero clue if either are even existant, but just want your feedback)
Dude, you're missing the awesomeness that this thread is providing by trying to stay on topic.Honestly, this is great. I read a lot, but lack the real technical expertise to really effectively evaluate a lot of this stuff.
Here is one thing, and I would appreciate your thoughts on this:
http://www.sandia.gov/Renewable_Ener...NSTTF/salt.htm
They seem to think it is feasible.
Could ceramic piping be a potential solution that might overcome the corrosive salts? More exotic carbon fibers? (zero clue if either are even existant, but just want your feedback)
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