If the world's population were reduced to 100 people (representatively)....

[tp2021]

what?? you are completely incorrect

you can be a person who is motivated to earn a lot of money and still avoid being greedy and materialistic.

I think the keyword is 'hoarding." not so sure about creation though, but i'm too tired to think.

[RandomGuy]

what?? you are completely incorrect

you can be a person who is motivated to earn a lot of money and still avoid being greedy and materialistic.

What I think he was trying to say (and I haven't finished entirely reading everything yet) was that greed in and of itself isn't enherently a completely bad thing.

It can be something of a motivation to prosper and do well for oneself, and can be a measure of one's ability to look out for oneself.

He would probably agree that there is a line between motivation to provide for oneself and one's family and avarice, which is clearly somewhat twisted.

If I remember correctly one of the great Greek philosophers commented that the only difference between a virtue and a vice was the degree to which it was practiced, such as in this instance.

[RandomGuy]

"Can be" being the operative word(s).

Doesn't matter the motivation, those people who earn a great deal are almost always protrayed that way; and, ultimately it IS the desire to earn that money, or prestige - and do with it what you will (including give it away) that inspires those capitalists that have helped this country create more wealth than any other at any time in history.

What I can imagine has NEVER happened is some dude building a huge company, or inventing a revolutionary widget thinking, "damn, this is great, I can earn a lot of money for the government, so they can make the World a better place!"

I have put myself on a career path to eventually become the CFO of a company. I have done so out of a desire to earn money, and a lot of it.

My sole intention is to live fairly modestly, and hoard enough money to either start a charitable fund, or help run one in order to help the developing world.

To this end, I have read a lot on topics of energy, economic development, and have read a lot about the nation-building exercises that we as a nation have set ourselves on in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Personally, I have come to believe that raising living standards world-wide is the surest way to raise living standards in the US.

[DarkReign]

I have put myself on a career path to eventually become the CFO of a company. I have done so out of a desire to earn money, and a lot of it.

My sole intention is to live fairly modestly, and hoard enough money to either start a charitable fund, or help run one in order to help the developing world.

To this end, I have read a lot on topics of energy, economic development, and have read a lot about the nation-building exercises that we as a nation have set ourselves on in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Personally, I have come to believe that raising living standards world-wide is the surest way to raise living standards in the US.

...then you should find yourself investing in manually operated water pumps sold by some genius engineer and his charity.

You want to make the biggest difference, theres where you start. Clean drinking water.

Cant remember the details, but an American engineer designed/patented a foot operated, deep water pump. Theyre expensive but he refuses to sell them. Waits for investment dollars from charitable people/programs, then installs them in the middle of the Sahara/Kalahari deserts.

Basically, the villages that get them have to have someone "stair-stepping" nearly all day to make it work, but that is a very small price to pay. Its incredibly simple and parts will almost never be needed.

One thing I read though, is that they are a commodity. So much so, that the villages who receive them had better keep quiet about it to other villages. Because they will migrate to them, en masse. Not only that, the local warlords know to secure these pumps as assets.

Africa is the most beautiful place in the world, bar none, hands down. But it is by far the most ed up and violent refelection of humanity one could ever dream of.

No amount of money, charity or goodwill will ever change the reality of human being's quest for dominance over others. You could build enough schools to educate all of Africa's youth, you could install deep water pumps in every village, you could invest X amount of dollars in every village to get started...and in three short years the rivers will run red with the blood of those same people. Reality is far worse than any fiction when it comes to Mother Africa.

[Don Quixote]

DarkKingdom has a realistic view of the African situation. No amount of charity or American federal grants is going to change that situation (and did I mention AIDS?) until there is some form of freedom, democracy, and economic development there. (How to get there? Beats me. Perhaps educate 1-2 generations of Africans on the need for freedom, human rights, etc.?) What they have right now is thug-ism.

And as an evangelical, of course what is needed, more than anything, is the gospel.

[101A]

I have put myself on a career path to eventually become the CFO of a company. I have done so out of a desire to earn money, and a lot of it.

My sole intention is to live fairly modestly, and hoard enough money to either start a charitable fund, or help run one in order to help the developing world.

To this end, I have read a lot on topics of energy, economic development, and have read a lot about the nation-building exercises that we as a nation have set ourselves on in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Personally, I have come to believe that raising living standards world-wide is the surest way to raise living standards in the US.

You evil capitilist, you!

[RandomGuy]

...then you should find yourself investing in manually operated water pumps sold by some genius engineer and his charity.

You want to make the biggest difference, theres where you start. Clean drinking water.

Cant remember the details, but an American engineer designed/patented a foot operated, deep water pump. Theyre expensive but he refuses to sell them. Waits for investment dollars from charitable people/programs, then installs them in the middle of the Sahara/Kalahari deserts.

Basically, the villages that get them have to have someone "stair-stepping" nearly all day to make it work, but that is a very small price to pay. Its incredibly simple and parts will almost never be needed.

One thing I read though, is that they are a commodity. So much so, that the villages who receive them had better keep quiet about it to other villages. Because they will migrate to them, en masse. Not only that, the local warlords know to secure these pumps as assets.

Africa is the most beautiful place in the world, bar none, hands down. But it is by far the most ed up and violent refelection of humanity one could ever dream of.

No amount of money, charity or goodwill will ever change the reality of human being's quest for dominance over others. You could build enough schools to educate all of Africa's youth, you could install deep water pumps in every village, you could invest X amount of dollars in every village to get started...and in three short years the rivers will run red with the blood of those same people. Reality is far worse than any fiction when it comes to Mother Africa.

You might find this pump interesting.

Basically, it creates a pump, then attaches that pump to a merry-go-round for kids to play on, letting the kids running around it power the pump.

Another good idea needing money is solar cookers.

It prevents wood from having to be harvested/burned for cooking fires.

Both are time/labor savers with easy to use, cheap methodology.

Here is another one that uses solar concentrating mirrors to boil water.

Combine inventions like this with some simple micro credit organizations.

There are a lot of awesome, low-tech things that are coming out these days. It is quite exciting.

[Gordon Gekko]

Greed is good.

[RandomGuy]

DarkKingdom has a realistic view of the African situation. No amount of charity or American federal grants is going to change that situation (and did I mention AIDS?) until there is some form of freedom, democracy, and economic development there. (How to get there? Beats me. Perhaps educate 1-2 generations of Africans on the need for freedom, human rights, etc.?) What they have right now is thug-ism.

And as an evangelical, of course what is needed, more than anything, is the gospel.

Talks Hans Rosling: Debunking third-world myths with the best stats you've ever seen


If the thread topic at all interests you, and even if not, you should watch this video.

The economist here has a couple of videos, and in the second one finishes the presentation by sword-swallowing. Heh, not your tipical older swedish economist. He is one of my personal heroes, and I hope to meet him someday.

[RandomGuy]

Greed is good.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Greed is right.

Greed works.

Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

And greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.



Thank you very much.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/Movi...allstreet.html

[RandomGuy]

You evil capitilist, you!

Thanks.

It might take me 30 years, but I will do it. Money is a tool, nothing more. A very useful tool, but a tool nonetheless. A lot of people lose sight of that.

[CuckingFunt]

I don't see why we can't embrace elements of capitalism without also demanding that they operate ethically and fairly.

[DarkReign]

I don't see why we can't embrace elements of capitalism without also demanding that they operate ethically and fairly.

While thats a very noble and appropriate response to a simple question, I think we forget the human factor.

You know, that we're blood-sucking parasites who'd step over our dead brothers and sisters to be the next millionaire.

Humanity is ugly. Civilization is horrendous. But its the best we got, plain and simple. Because beating on each other with blunt objects for the first 30-ish thousand years got us nowhere.

[CuckingFunt]

While thats a very noble and appropriate response to a simple question, I think we forget the human factor.

You know, that we're blood-sucking parasites who'd step over our dead brothers and sisters to be the next millionaire.

Humanity is ugly. Civilization is horrendous. But its the best we got, plain and simple. Because beating on each other with blunt objects for the first 30-ish thousand years got us nowhere.

I don't disagree with this, but neither will I allow myself to accept it as an absolute.

I think that the only reason all that ugly has been associated with an unavoidable facet of human nature is because we have, collectively, allowed biology and instinct to be used as an excuse for bad behavior for the past few millennia. Capitalism, colonization, globalization, genocide, Manifest Destiny, et al -- this stuff all happened (happens) because there was something specifically to gain from it, not because we got bored and couldn't think of any other way to entertain ourselves. It's not going to happen in my lifetime, of course, but I'd like to think we possess the ability to someday realize that those gains can be made without the need to conquer our planet and all of its peoples in the process.

[Mark in Austin]

I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that we should chalk up everything ugly about humanity in genral or Africa in particular as simply human nature. I think that explanation ignores the consequences - often unintended - of specific actions. With respect to Africa - the explosion of suffering and brutality we have witnessed in the past 20 years has an awful lot to do with the sudden availability of a near limitless supply of weapons from the old Soviet Union and it's satellite states.

Further back in history, when the colonial powers left Africa, they left a societal vacuum - there weren't the established social ins utions and traditions that a modern, moderate society organizes itself around. The Future of Freedom by Fahreed Zakahria - talks about this. In those situations you either find ultra-nationalist extremeists rise to power (think Milosovich in Serbia) or a complete collapse into chaos like parts of Africa.

Economically, we had a relatively stable economic system for quite a few decades after the end of WWII. The choices to change certain rules - whatever the initial reasons for those choices - have resulted in some financial companies and individuals being able to legally act on their greed to the extreme extent some have, destroying companies and lives along the way.

My point with both examples is that while it may be human nature to be greedy, it is also human nature for societies / organizations to coalesce around rules and an implicit agreement by the members of the society to follow those rules. It is when society breaks down - when the rules fall away no matter if by active choice, apathy, or outside forces - that you see the worst humanity has to offer on a chaotic, large scale.

I don't write this as an apology or an excuse for the actions of any individual - we are all responsible for our own actions. But it would be foolish to try to deny that humanity is social by nature: family, tribe, city, state, country - the principles or rules of the group(s) to which we belong effect / inform our decisions and actions.

[MiamiHeat]

What I think he was trying to say (and I haven't finished entirely reading everything yet) was that greed in and of itself isn't enherently a completely bad thing.

It can be something of a motivation to prosper and do well for oneself, and can be a measure of one's ability to look out for oneself.

He would probably agree that there is a line between motivation to provide for oneself and one's family and avarice, which is clearly somewhat twisted.

If I remember correctly one of the great Greek philosophers commented that the only difference between a virtue and a vice was the degree to which it was practiced, such as in this instance.

nope
this is what he said.

And, RG, if there wasn't materialism and greed in this country, the vast wealth wouldn't exist to be redistributed. Greed is the motivating factor for both the creation and hoarding of wealth. Can't have one without the other. It is an enigma.

[ploto]

And we should do this not because the goods will magically show up in North Korea (if they did, Kim Jong il would steal them). Or because we feel guilty about our way of life. Or because the President told us to "sacrifice." But because it is right.

It isn't charity- it is justice.

[Don Quixote]

It isn't charity- it is justice.

Can you elaborate? I'm confused. What would be just in this situation?

Do you think that the resources we don't use here -- gasoline, electricity, paper, metals -- will somehow appear in North Korea, Africa, or Bangladesh, merely by virtue by our not using them?

How exactly is it unjust to use the things that you have earned -- your car, your home, your electricity? Did we steal them from someone else? I haven't.

Would it be any more just if a govt were to mandate the taking of goods from one group and giving them to another without payment whatsoever? What exactly are you proposing?