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  1. #26
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    They really weren't being elected for their states though. From what I've read, senators got their positions by being given them as a form of payment for political favors, and the people demanded that they be able to vote their senators in due to this.
    Ding Ding Ding!

    It was changed because the position of Senator was nepotism at its finest. It was a traded political commodity that had no real bearing on the State's interests.

  2. #27
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Yep, until the 17th Amendment, Senators were selected by the State's legislatures -- thus, representing the States in Congress. The U.S. House of Representatives was populated by the people.

    That's the way the founders intended it.

    The Civil War didn't help but, the 17th Amendment put the nail in the coffin. There is no one representing the States' interests in Washington anymore.
    Because when a Senator is elected by the population of the entire state, they really don't feel much of a compulsion to represent that population when they get to Washington, but a person elected to the house of representatives feels all the compulsion in the world to represent their sub-section of their state.

    Gotcha. Anybody elected by an entire population of a state doesn't really represent that state.

    I think there are 50 governors who might disagree with that implication.



    Because one roll of the eyes just doesn't convey my sheer frustration with the logical failure of this post.

  3. #28
    What's the Word? Don Quixote's Avatar
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    Its my belief Americans/Humans just want to be left alone and have a fair chance at success. Governments in general, do not allow this to happen in its entirety.

    Dont take that statement the wrong way...I realize government is absolutely necessary, period. But with time, that power grows. As it grows, it becomes coveted. Demand for it increases even though what it supplies is limited (at first).

    Its really predictable when you step back and think about what government is without the semantics.

    Bottom Line: Few control the many.
    Good take. I mostly agree. Governments, as a matter of their nature, strive to increase and consolidate their power. They can't help themselves. This is why small-govt conservatism will always be fighting an uphill battle, for (as we saw from about 1998-2006) when the conservatives get power, they too want to increase it.

    But I agree 100% that men just want to be left alone, to prosper, worship, etc., without undue interference or taxation from the govt. Well said.

  4. #29
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    by the way.....i've wanted to commend you on your behavior regarding the angel luv engagement.

  5. #30
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    They may have billions but we have the power of the vote..... , it works in Europe....government works for people to a fault....imagine that
    You mean this as April fool joke, right?

  6. #31
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Okay ChumpD... we all wanna know what you're laughing about..

    He doesn't know. He is just thought it was a cute thing to do.

    He has problems putting together more than one sentence. And
    he loves little pictures.

  7. #32
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Sometimes there is nothing to do but laugh. Saying states are no longer represented in the senate because the senators are elected by the people in the states is pretty laughable.

  8. #33
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    by the way.....i've wanted to commend you on your behavior regarding the angel luv engagement.
    ??

  9. #34
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Is it really all that "quiet" of a coup?

    I dont believe it is. Everyone here on this board and in life knows Washington is a bought and paid for commodity.

    We still havent done anything about it, nor will we ever (as a people).

    Its my belief Americans/Humans just want to be left alone and have a fair chance at success. Governments in general, do not allow this to happen in its entirety.

    Dont take that statement the wrong way...I realize government is absolutely necessary, period. But with time, that power grows. As it grows, it becomes coveted. Demand for it increases even though what it supplies is limited (at first).

    Its really predictable when you step back and think about what government is without the semantics.

    Bottom Line: Few control the many.

    Is not the oddest thing that by and large, most Americans live their lives in the spirit of the Framers' creation, most would prefer to be left the F alone, and then we end up with this monstrosity in DC? To me there seems to be a minority of extremists/nuts/loons on both sides of the spectrum who are so motivated to expand the state into every nook and cranny of our lives. I'd start the Leave Me the Alone Party if I wasn't so apathetic.

    Sadly, the Libertarian Party either can't get its act together or most Americans can't figure out what it stands for because the large media conglomerate of their choice has led them to believe that there are only two political parties in these United States.

  10. #35
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Sadly, the Libertarian Party either can't get its act together or most Americans can't figure out what it stands for because the large media conglomerate of their choice has led them to believe that there are only two political parties in these United States.
    Might have something to do with the way we elect our representative government.

    This nation uses a two party system one degree less than a parlimentary government (which aint much).

    I have heard the arguments for and against, especially during the election. I personally do not care how ed up things get so I favor more than a two-party system. But I can at least see the oppos ion's logic when a President might be elected to office with less than 25% of the popular vote (if there were five parties, for example, and the candidate won the required state's electoral votes by the same margin internally).

    It would create a crowded field, to be sure. But I think the field needs to be crowded in short order. As it were...

    Government is tricky business. So is money. So is law enforcement.

    All absolutely necessary, all equally distrusted by default (guilty until proven innocent).

    Rightfully so, I say. They should be distrusted from their birth until their death. Their mere existence should raise your su ion and that persistent feeling should never leave your conscience.

    Because money/government/police should be treated no differently than children, from a societal perspective anyway. If you give them and inch, they take a mile. Problem is, when the government takes a mile, your child no longer has college tuition (so the stakes are raised exponentially). As a group, the onus should be on the officer's to prove they didnt shoot that civilian without good cause. As a society, we should expect the banking ins utions to have full disclosure of their investment and trade practices first and foremost. As a People, we absolutely must demand the rights of individuals supercede without question or debate the needs of government or the majority at large.

    There are exceptions to every "rule" I wrote there. There always are and always will be. But the spirit should be followed, IMO.

    Why?

    Because, as a society, we give them power over us. Intentionally or inadvertently, this does not matter. Which is the reason I always ask "Who benefits?" when something strikes me as odd in the news.

    Every good citizen knows law enforcement is absolutely needed, so we intentionally give police forces/FBI/etc a pre-determined amount of power to execute their role in society effectively.

    Inadvertently and without notice, youre also empowering the legislature of your local municipality, Congress or the POTUS to use that given power against us because they are responsible for crafting law and policy of the land. Sometimes by popular demand (airport security after 9/11), sometimes not so much (War on Drugs). Sometimes even for an overt, government power-grab, no bones about it (domestic wire-tapping).

    These en ies become self-interested and equally debted to one another, thus We the People become obsolete. The People become a necessary evil to them, as they are a necessary evil to us.

    What was supposed to be a symbiotic relationship mutates into a battle of parasites competing for the same host. Whether the People will "vote themselves largesse from the public treasury" or the goverment levies unrestricted tax, or spreads the notion of fear for political gain, or any number of tactics (new or unfound as of yet).

    One way or the other, the relationship is adversarial. How intense that adversity is determines stability. The USA is unyieldingly stable in comparison to its contemporaries, it isnt even close really.

    To be honest, thats the most terrifying part of the equation. While the G20 summit in Britain causes hundreds if not thousands of English citizens to flood the space around the summit building in protest (rightly or wrongly), do we think the same would happen in America?

    Moreover, wouldnt we as Americans look down on the unruly ones who chose to voice their dissent?

    If there were ever a time for protest in our generation's time, it is now. Our parents had Vietnam and they rightfully resisted the government's every move.

    This financial crisis is nowhere near the same as a war/engagement like Vietnam, but its implications to our way of life are way more profound than stopping those filthy reds from expanding their influence in some far-off region of rubber trees.

    Yet, all I see is justification. Justify the government, justify the banks, justify the ensuing action, rationalize, justify, accept, conform, understand, make-do, etc.

    Sure, the government will put on its dog-n-pony show for the cameras and grill some not-so-lucky-today CEO about its practices, but ultimately, later that day those same politicians signed legislation that effectively wrote checks with a lot of zeros attached to that same guy.

    Its because as a government, we allow private ins utions to become so influential, intertwined and incredibly HUGE that their very existence is necessary to the government and its People not going bankrupt, wholesale.

    My question is, who is the real asshole in this case? Who really benefits?

    The answers arent flattering. People say all the time "Hate the game, not the player". These CEOs/bankers/financial managers play the game better than you and me because their wealth and prestige allow them influence over the rules of the game by way of government. These rules are then enforced by law and law enforcement.

    So, hate the game, not the player, right? that. Im broke as and pissed off, I say let heads roll. Let the streets flood with blue blood. We Morlocs ought to remind the Eloi a thing or two about the terms of our contractual relationship.
    Last edited by DarkReign; 04-08-2009 at 02:57 PM.

  11. #36
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    This financial crisis is nowhere near the same as a war/engagement like Vietnam, but its implications to our way of life are way more profound than stopping those filthy reds from expanding their influence in some far-off region of rubber trees.
    People will get it afterward. Most of them don't even understand the game yet. Give them another year or two. This financial crisis is nowhere near over.

  12. #37
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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  13. #38
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    One of the basic themes of goldmansachs666.com is to show how Goldman has been gaming the system. It's recently alleged that Goldman has been maxing out on derivatives and may be front-running its trades. Totally plausible, creepy stuff.

  14. #39
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    One of the basic themes of goldmansachs666.com is to show how Goldman has been gaming the system. It's recently alleged that Goldman has been maxing out on derivatives and may be front-running its trades. Totally plausible, creepy stuff.
    A lot of brokers have been accused of, and even found guilty of front-running trades. Goldman among them.

    Front running is the illegal practice of a stock broker executing orders on a security for its own account while taking advantage of advance knowledge of pending orders from its customers. When orders previously submitted by its customers will predictably affect the price of the security, purchasing first for its own account gives the broker an unfair advantage, since it can expect to close out its position at a profit based on the new price level. Front running may involve either buying (where the broker buys for their account, driving up the price before filling customer buy orders) or selling (where the broker sells for its own account, driving down the price before filling customer sell orders).
    (wikipedia, of course)

    It is such an easy way to game the system, that it is attractive to larger brokerage houses.

  15. #40
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Might have something to do with the way we elect our representative government.

    This nation uses a two party system one degree less than a parlimentary government (which aint much).

    I have heard the arguments for and against, especially during the election. I personally do not care how ed up things get so I favor more than a two-party system. But I can at least see the oppos ion's logic when a President might be elected to office with less than 25% of the popular vote (if there were five parties, for example, and the candidate won the required state's electoral votes by the same margin internally).

    It would create a crowded field, to be sure. But I think the field needs to be crowded in short order. As it were...

    Government is tricky business. So is money. So is law enforcement.

    All absolutely necessary, all equally distrusted by default (guilty until proven innocent).

    Rightfully so, I say. They should be distrusted from their birth until their death. Their mere existence should raise your su ion and that persistent feeling should never leave your conscience.

    Because money/government/police should be treated no differently than children, from a societal perspective anyway. If you give them and inch, they take a mile. Problem is, when the government takes a mile, your child no longer has college tuition (so the stakes are raised exponentially). As a group, the onus should be on the officer's to prove they didnt shoot that civilian without good cause. As a society, we should expect the banking ins utions to have full disclosure of their investment and trade practices first and foremost. As a People, we absolutely must demand the rights of individuals supercede without question or debate the needs of government or the majority at large.

    There are exceptions to every "rule" I wrote there. There always are and always will be. But the spirit should be followed, IMO.

    Why?

    Because, as a society, we give them power over us. Intentionally or inadvertently, this does not matter. Which is the reason I always ask "Who benefits?" when something strikes me as odd in the news.

    Every good citizen knows law enforcement is absolutely needed, so we intentionally give police forces/FBI/etc a pre-determined amount of power to execute their role in society effectively.

    Inadvertently and without notice, youre also empowering the legislature of your local municipality, Congress or the POTUS to use that given power against us because they are responsible for crafting law and policy of the land. Sometimes by popular demand (airport security after 9/11), sometimes not so much (War on Drugs). Sometimes even for an overt, government power-grab, no bones about it (domestic wire-tapping).

    These en ies become self-interested and equally debted to one another, thus We the People become obsolete. The People become a necessary evil to them, as they are a necessary evil to us.

    What was supposed to be a symbiotic relationship mutates into a battle of parasites competing for the same host. Whether the People will "vote themselves largesse from the public treasury" or the goverment levies unrestricted tax, or spreads the notion of fear for political gain, or any number of tactics (new or unfound as of yet).

    One way or the other, the relationship is adversarial. How intense that adversity is determines stability. The USA is unyieldingly stable in comparison to its contemporaries, it isnt even close really.

    To be honest, thats the most terrifying part of the equation. While the G20 summit in Britain causes hundreds if not thousands of English citizens to flood the space around the summit building in protest (rightly or wrongly), do we think the same would happen in America?

    Moreover, wouldnt we as Americans look down on the unruly ones who chose to voice their dissent?

    If there were ever a time for protest in our generation's time, it is now. Our parents had Vietnam and they rightfully resisted the government's every move.

    This financial crisis is nowhere near the same as a war/engagement like Vietnam, but its implications to our way of life are way more profound than stopping those filthy reds from expanding their influence in some far-off region of rubber trees.

    Yet, all I see is justification. Justify the government, justify the banks, justify the ensuing action, rationalize, justify, accept, conform, understand, make-do, etc.

    Sure, the government will put on its dog-n-pony show for the cameras and grill some not-so-lucky-today CEO about its practices, but ultimately, later that day those same politicians signed legislation that effectively wrote checks with a lot of zeros attached to that same guy.

    Its because as a government, we allow private ins utions to become so influential, intertwined and incredibly HUGE that their very existence is necessary to the government and its People not going bankrupt, wholesale.

    My question is, who is the real asshole in this case? Who really benefits?

    The answers arent flattering. People say all the time "Hate the game, not the player". These CEOs/bankers/financial managers play the game better than you and me because their wealth and prestige allow them influence over the rules of the game by way of government. These rules are then enforced by law and law enforcement.

    So, hate the game, not the player, right? that. Im broke as and pissed off, I say let heads roll. Let the streets flood with blue blood. We Morlocs ought to remind the Eloi a thing or two about the terms of our contractual relationship.
    Good rant.

    Personally, I am all in favor of capital punishment for people like Madoff.

  16. #41
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    A lot of brokers have been accused of, and even found guilty of front-running trades. Goldman among them.

    It is such an easy way to game the system, that it is attractive to larger brokerage houses.
    They are also gaming their own clients. This is where the fiduciary disconnect happens...

  17. #42
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Front-running is a criminal ing activity.

  18. #43
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Goldman shouldn't be allowed to soak their own clients like that, but just watch them do it.

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