Nope, that's only somewhat true. When I look at a player I remember to when they were at their best, not when they were up and coming or over the hill. For several years Hakeem did it better than Duncan or pretty much anyone.
I wanted to see if you would continue to follow your logic, and you did.
Personally, I think Tim Duncan is a better player than Bill Russell. Russell was the better winner in an era that was not nearly as compe ive, but I think Duncan is the better player.
I'm surprised you feel Russell was better.
Then how can you point to Hakeem saying he was more important to his team if it does not rest on one players shoulders?
Just because I said Duncan got them there, does not mean there was no one else, but he was the most dominant/best player on the team. He did lead them.
Nope, but that's somewhat of a crutch because Duncan simply isn't capable of guarding those type of players all game long, he'd foul out. By sticking him on them in crunch time you're relying on the fact that the ref is reluctant to foul out a hall of famer and he can get away with more.
And as far as Amare, he averaged 40ppg on Duncan the last time he guarded him for an entire series back in 2005. We all see how that went
It is not even close.
Duncan played in a weak era of basketball. The only decent team he ever faced was Shaq and Kobes Lakers. His dominance in this era causes people to overate him.
Hakeem played in one of the toughest. The Sonics, Suns, Spurs, Bulls and Jazz of the 90s would dominate in the league today. Hakeem led his team past 3 consecutive 60 win teams, all of which were vastly superior to any team Duncan had to face in his reign (outside LA)
Huh? I can say Hakeem was extremely important to the team without saying making or missing the playoffs was only on his shoulders. That was the point. It's still a team game. It still takes a team to win games and to have success. So the point I was arguing that "Tim Duncan would never allow his team to miss the playoffs in his prime" is something I feel has little merit because while individual player might be very important for the team, it's not only on one single player to win games and get their teams to the playoffs.
At some point, you have to look at when they were healthy and Tim's win percentage was higher than Hakeem's. That is more Tim than his team.
Tim won more games for his team than Hakeem did and willed them to the playoffs. He put his team in better spots so that if he did miss time, they could still make the playoffs.
It is a cop out to pull the "team wins" card, but then try and argue one player being better than another on an individual basis. You are essentially giving Tim no credit, and saying his team made the playoffs because his team was better than Hakeem's.
More or less even. Olajuwon was better at scoring and defense; Duncan was better at rebounding and passing. Neither had too many weaknesses.
I haven't seen a credible analysis of specific strengths or weaknesses in either's game that led to a difference in team success - and I reject timvp's magical thinking about "clutchness" of teammates entirely.
Neither is on Kareem or Wilt's level, but they aren't far behind, and I'd take either ahead of any other center you care to name.
This is the most homerrific post in the thread. The SPURS of the 90s would have dominated the Spurs in any of their championship seasons? Really?
Wow.
The Bulls were never Olajuwon's compe ion, since they played each other twice a year.
Suns? Only the 93 team would have a shot at le right now. The Jazz had their chance to dominate when Jordan retired, and they barely escaped the first round and then Karl Malone became an even greater pussy in the Portland series. Sonics? The same team that blew a series to a horrible Denver team is going to come and regulate against the Lakers, Spurs, and Celtics of this decade? 95 Spurs? With Rodman pouting and not playing D?
You gotta be kidding me. 1994 was an incredibly weak year for the league. That Knicks team was awful; what kind of scoring did they have on that team? They still took you to 7 with Ewing playing one of the worst series of his career. Why were you even talking about the Sonics as compe ion when Denver took care of the job for you?
That's an inaccurate representation of what I was saying.
I haven't been discrediting Tim Duncan. I gave an example of how Tim Duncan had a better team around him than Hakeem did, particularly in the 1991-92 season when the Rockets missed the playoffs. Once again, you are putting it on Tim Duncan, saying he won more games for his team than Hakeem did and willed them to the playoffs. Again, giving the credit to Tim Duncan.
It's not a cop out to say the team wins games and then argue which player is better individually. Winning games and winning championships is on an entire team. Being the better individual player is about individual players. Not a cop out. Not a contradiction.
It's not about not giving Tim credit. It's about showing that one player alone does not win games or gets all or even the majority of the credit for taking a team to the playoffs or gets all or the majority of the blame for his team missing the playoffs. It being on the team as a whole is precisely what I've been arguing, and that's why to me a team missing the playoffs by one game in a season they went 2-10 without that player isn't a strike against how good or bad that player is.
Hmmm thats funny, especially when Barkley admitted it?!?!?Self ownage
The Rockets were 2-2 against the Sonics that year. The Rockets did not match up well with them when they gave up Thorpe for Clyde in '95.The Bulls were never Olajuwon's compe ion, since they played each other twice a year.
Suns? Only the 93 team would have a shot at le right now. The Jazz had their chance to dominate when Jordan retired, and they barely escaped the first round and then Karl Malone became an even greater pussy in the Portland series. Sonics? The same team that blew a series to a horrible Denver team is going to come and regulate against the Lakers, Spurs, and Celtics of this decade? 95 Spurs? With Rodman pouting and not playing D?
You gotta be kidding me. 1994 was an incredibly weak year for the league. That Knicks team was awful; what kind of scoring did they have on that team? They still took you to 7 with Ewing playing one of the worst series of his career. Why were you even talking about the Sonics as compe ion when Denver took care of the job for you?
Son listen, I know you want to feel special for your guy. I understand where you are coming from. Tim Duncan is fantastic, he really is. Great game, few weaknesses, great personality. But he just isn't as good as you think he is. He was a man amongst boys in his years. He was one of 2-3 legitimate big men in the league. If he came into the league in 89, he is winning zero championships and zero mvps.The Bulls were never Olajuwon's compe ion, since they played each other twice a year.
Suns? Only the 93 team would have a shot at le right now. The Jazz had their chance to dominate when Jordan retired, and they barely escaped the first round and then Karl Malone became an even greater pussy in the Portland series. Sonics? The same team that blew a series to a horrible Denver team is going to come and regulate against the Lakers, Spurs, and Celtics of this decade? 95 Spurs? With Rodman pouting and not playing D?
You gotta be kidding me. 1994 was an incredibly weak year for the league. That Knicks team was awful; what kind of scoring did they have on that team? They still took you to 7 with Ewing playing one of the worst series of his career. Why were you even talking about the Sonics as compe ion when Denver took care of the job for you?
The era of bigmen in the nineties and quality of teams and far and away more compe ive then the collection of vaginas that have run rampant in the league for the past ten years.
I can't even begin to fathom what Hakeem would do if he came into the league in 99. Who would ing guard him? He would average 40-15-5. Look at what Dwight Howard averages and he has zero post up game.
I agree but most won't see it that way
The only thing Duncan is better at is assists........and that's it. (and it's not even a huge # difference)
Hakeem Olajuwon > at
man to man defense
team defense
shot blocking...........he's one of the best defensive players that ever played, the man could've had a HOF career on that end of the court alone
offensive skills...post play (one of the best alltime there too) and a better shooter.
and a better rebounder, yes a better rebounder (right now there career averages are dead even, but don't forget Hakeem played until he was 39, we'll see how far Duncan's numbers fall is he plays that long. Duncan hasn't rebounded at or above his career average since he was 27 years old......at 27 Hakeem was pulling down 14 boards a game.
from start of career to the age of 32 Hakeem averaged 12.4 boards a game....Duncan, 11.7.
Last edited by Tmac&Luther; 04-13-2009 at 10:38 PM.
Now THAT is the Jamstone I remember ...insightful fair and honest. Hakeem in a close race for me as well ..if we go to the question of "franchise" Id take tim for the consistency of his greatness and less ego ...
But if i had to win one game or series and i had to go to war with one or the other It's hakeem in a cakewalk his best was better than duncan's best or Shaq's he just wasnt as dominant for as long but ask the Spurs, Sonics etc. in the playoffs who was more dominant? Hakeem the "Dream" ...
Hakeem was dominant throughout his career (knocking off the showtime Lakers in only his second season), the only thing that wasn't was the talent around him.......if Ralph doesn't become chronically injured and if his teammates don't let their careers go down the drain because of drug use, this isn't even a debate.
And I'd still love to hear how Duncan is a "better team player" I guess you get that award when you play on "better teams". Go ask the players Hakeem played with, they'll tell you who the "best team player" was. Hakeem never put his self before any of his teammates and I don't know where this "ego" talk came from. Hakeem doesn't even know what a "ego" is. You couldn't ever meet a more humble individual. Some people that are posting in this thread probably never even saw the guy play ball, because some of the stuff they're typing is completely off the wall
Another point here ...Coaching. Duncan has had same coach same front-office. pop does NOT get enough credit for coaching the team around Duncan's strengths and he and RC getting players that complement him well ...the barkley Pippen experiment was one of those Stever kerr Isiah thomas specials where you just collect talent but don't complememnt the star well ...Spurs have donme that for Most of duncan's career the 3 peat Lakers, pistons and Celts last year did a good job of this for short stretches ...Duncan has benefited from this his WHOLE career ...
Look duncan is my all-time PF ...and only behind Kareem and Hakeem in my big man pantheon ...(he edges out SHAQ)
But if you put Kareem Shaq Duncan and Hakeem at their peaks ...duncan may not even beat out Shaq ...but I would take duncan over Shaq for his consistency and leadership ...for the long haul. I have said this many times ...
Kareem is the best because he was bad ass at his peak yet did it well for many years ...
Duncan would average 20 boards a game playing for the Feenix Sons. Just saying that pace matters and if you're going to bandy on about stats, Spurs fans are going to come back with les and mvp talk.
One last thought watch the dream or his profile on NBA team and watch the plays where he chases down Rod strickland or blocks 3 straight shots ...Hakeem made blocks like the one everyone was gushing about Lebron made on Ray allen on Sunday every other night!
Look im a laker fan and as a youngun he made me cry when he led the rox over my lakers in '86 ...but game recognizes game Hakeem had playoffs and seasons much like what Lebron is doing in a tougher era sorry but Hakeem is better ...Duncan is the best big man since though ...BUT SHaq at his best was more dominant as well ...
Hakeem's peak as a rebounder was from about 1988 to 1993, the same years during which he was at his peak defensively. And yes, during those four years, he was about 5% more efficient a rebounder than Duncan typically is - he was at the height of his athletic ability and that was always better than was Duncan's.
But during his offensive peak in the early-mid 90s, he was worse at rebounding than Duncan has ever been, save for the 2008 season. It's this disjointed inconsistency that leads me to favor Duncan in this area: Duncan is a career 18.4% rebounder, and tends to vary in between 17.6 and 19.6; Olajuwon is a career 17.2% rebounder, but varies -- during his young and peak years, ignoring the declining ones of the late '90s -- from 14.5 to 19.9.
Another part of this is that Duncan is inarguably the better defensive rebounder, while Olajuwon boosts his rebounding totals with his superior work on the offensive glass. Not that offensive rebounding isn't important - clearly it is - but I'd rate it less so than defensive glass work.
Sorry, but that doesn't work either.
Go pull up the rebounding stats of Ralph Sampson, Otis Thorpe, and Charles Barkley when they played here......that's who Olajuwon had to compete with every night. Duncan had a beat up Robinson and Rodman was pretty much the only other double digit threat. Do you know how many boards a game he'd grab playing next to Oberto?
read above please.....Duncan never really played with other rebounding bigs. Hakeem would be free to suck everything up as well.
Another point mising here HAkeem was the FAR more AGressive shot blocker ...anyone that knows ball knows that if you are shotblocking you will miss some rebound opportunities ...Duncan is great position defender and to be honest sometimes Hakeem's gamblesfor steals and blocks left his team vulnerable Tim rarely ever does that but because Hakeem intimidated opponents in way duncan never has (he is respected more but not feared) I say hakeem is still the better rebounder ... if i needed 1 rebound or loose ball to be sntached Id much rather have hakeem geting after it than duncan ..sorry.
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