Hakeem vs Duncan Part 2

[Blake]

Straight from the horses mouth.

We are comparing players, not the accomplishments of teams.

Well then Duncan has 2 mvps. Hakeem 1. End of thread.

[baseline bum]

I'm assuming since you say you stopped reading at the NY Knicks that you didn't notice my entire post, mainly the bolded part.



Sorry, but I'm not looking at the current teams and seeing how they were better than teams from the 90's. The only way that argument seems to make sense is if you compare the runner ups from the 90's to the winning teams from the 00's. I don't see how one can really argue that the runner ups from this decade are better than the above teams, especially the ones from the Eastern Conference. I don't think too many will agree that the 90's Bulls wouldn't be winning today, or the 91 Pistons...that's 7 of the 10 les from the 90's. So even if you compare le winning teams from that decade, the 90's still comes out ahead. And I still would take most of those above teams over basically every le team today but the 3-peat Lakers, the 08 Celtics and possibly the 05 Spurs.

As far as the Knicks are concerned, Ewing did shoot a lot of jumpers, but like Robinson he made most of them. He did so poorly (offensively) in the 94 Finals because Hakeem was D'ing him up. As another poster noted, if Hakeem doesn't block Starks jumper in Game 6 then the Knicks probably win (he was on fire that game) and he is remembered for that instead of the Game 7 debacle. The Knicks were in that series not because we blew leads, but because their great defense made it difficult to score!! And again, they took the le Bulls to 7 games in 92 and 6 games in 93. The Knicks were a very good team.

Why are you using Jordan and the Bulls to say Olajuwon had tougher compe ion?

[Blake]

Robinson is 10 times a better defender than Duncan, and if he can't stop Hakeem, there is no way Duncan could. Hakeem had the most incredible post moves I have ever seen, and I hated him so much but as I have gotten older I realized how amazing of player he was. And this is no disrespect to Timmeth!!! I love Duncan but Hakeem was something out of this world

right. For one year.

What does Robinson not being able to stop Hakeem in 94 have anything to do with Duncan winning 2 MVPs, 4 les and 3 Finals MVPs?

Over 30 games head to head, Hakeem averaged about 26 ppg against Robinson but David averaged 22 against Hakeem. It's not really either one was really stopping the other.

David was all NBA first team 4x. Hakeem 6x in a longer career.

Plus Tim didn't make Manu or Tony into who they are, Manu was a star before he came to the Spurs and did all the crazy things that he does today even as a rookie!

Manu has been an all star just once and and his highest scoring average has been 19 ppg.....

Tony as a 19 year old took more from Pop than any other player I have ever seen and he never stopped improving. Tony made himself into a star by marrying a movie star and working on his outside shot.

Drexler was already an all star and stayed an all star after joining the rockets.

[Blake]

I can count just fine.....

1 dumbass, ha..ha..ha

apparently you don't know that 2 is a larger number than 1.

1 MVP dumbass, ha..ha..ha

[Blake]

Nope, I stay in the average neighborhood, you know brick house, picket fence..the whole nine yards....but on other nights I can be found in yo mom's bed, but things are starting to get hairy down there if you know what I mean. well maybe you don't, we'll have a talk next week.

when you're in bed, do you pretend you are Tmac or do you pretend you are luther? or both?

[Blake]

We are talking about whose the better INDIVIDUAL player, not rings...

2 MVPs Duncan > 1 MVP Hakeem

3 Finals MVPs Duncan > 2 Finals MVPs Hakeem

[baseline bum]

Seriously, the 04 Pistons defense murders the 94 Knicks'. The Pistons allowed fewer point on lower shooting percentages without the benefit of the handcheck or refs who swallow their whistle on hard fouls. You're overrating the out of that team.

[Blake]

Seriously, the 04 Pistons defense murders the 94 Knicks'. The Pistons allowed fewer point on lower shooting percentages without the benefit of the handcheck or refs who swallow their whistle on hard fouls. You're overrating the out of that team.

No kidding.

If Hakeem could pretty much stop Ewing one on one, imagine what Ben and Rasheed would do.

[mavs>spurs2]

2 MVPs Duncan > 1 MVP Hakeem

3 Finals MVPs Duncan > 2 Finals MVPs Hakeem

It's hard to win MVP's when you're drafted in the same year as Michael Jordan. Please stop with the weak 3>2 argument as it's not the "be all and end all" of this discussion.

[mavs>spurs2]

No kidding.

If Hakeem could pretty much stop Ewing one on one, imagine what Ben and Rasheed would do.

Just because maybe the greatest defender ever could stop someone doesn't mean Ben and Rasheed Wallace could , although they're both solid defenders

[mavs>spurs2]

Seriously, the 04 Pistons defense murders the 94 Knicks'. The Pistons allowed fewer point on lower shooting percentages without the benefit of the handcheck or refs who swallow their whistle on hard fouls. You're overrating the out of that team.

Yeah the 2004 Pistons had one of the best team defenses ever before seen. It's too bad they let go of Ben and that team was never the same. Pretty much a one hit wonder

[Blake]

Just because maybe the greatest defender ever could stop someone doesn't mean Ben and Rasheed Wallace could , although they're both solid defenders

yes, it does.

how many times did Ben Wallace win defensive player of the year?

good job, idiot.

[Blake]

It's hard to win MVP's when you're drafted in the same year as Michael Jordan. Please stop with the weak 3>2 argument as it's not the "be all and end all" of this discussion.

no, it's hard to win MVPs when you're team rarely ever wins 60 games.

Only 6 times was he ever even first team all NBA at the center position, and only 6 times was he ever in the top 5 in MVP voting so you can stop with the "yeah, well it was because Jordan was playing."

Only once has Duncan ever finished outside the top 5 in MVP voting from what I can tell.

[Blake]

Yeah the 2004 Pistons had one of the best team defenses ever before seen. It's too bad they let go of Ben and that team was never the same. Pretty much a one hit wonder

they went to the finals the next year.

you are truly a jeenyus.

[mavs>spurs2]

they went to the finals the next year.

you are truly a jeenyus.

"Pretty much" meaning they had one year of success, were damn good for a couple, and were dismantled prematurely. Go yourself Mr. High and Mighty, that Pistons team had great D but were sadly only a flash in the pan

[Blake]

The MVP argument is a joke since Steve Nash has two of them!

based on what the Suns did in those years, he deserved them.

but since he no western conference les, he will still never be mentioned in the same breath with other greats that have actually been there.

He isn't better than Isiah, Kevin Johnson, or John Stocken, but he won 2 MVP awards.

during those 2 years, he was as good as those guys.

just like during 94 and 95, Hakeem was better than any one year Tim has had.

Now I'm not saying Tim doesn't deserve his but the argument is moot.

Also one of the finals MVP should have gone to Manu in 2005 he was actually the Mvp of those finals!

No because Manu disappeared in games 3-5.

[baseline bum]

Yeah the 2004 Pistons had one of the best team defenses ever before seen. It's too bad they let go of Ben and that team was never the same. Pretty much a one hit wonder

They never recovered from losing Larry Brown. Brown would do little things like feed Big Ben a couple of possessions a game to keep him motivated and sharp. Saunders was an awful coach for that team.

[mavs>spurs2]

yes, it does.

how many times did Ben Wallace win defensive player of the year?

good job, idiot.

Ben Wallace is on Hakeems level defensively? Get outta here..

[Blake]

"Pretty much" meaning they had one year of success, were damn good for a couple, and were dismantled prematurely.

"pretty much" like Hakeem and the Rockets.

Go yourself Mr. High and Mighty, that Pistons team had great D but were sadly only a flash in the pan

you can take your imaginary 2006 championship and shove it up your red eye.

you're an idiot.

[Blake]

Ben Wallace is on Hakeems level defensively? Get outta here..

4 defensive player of the year awards.

Good lord you are one dumbass mother fokker.

[Blake]

So Nash had two decent seasons, which were the norm for the other players mentioned and he wins back to back MVPS? This proves why the MVP award doesn't mean that much anymore! He wasn't even dominate unlike other MVP's were.

now you are trying to downplay the MVP award?

The Suns only won 29 games the year before he got there and were predicted to do basically the same the next year when they won 62.

He was the leader of that team averaging 16 on 50% shooting and 12 assists per game.

The next year he averaged 11 assists a game, but all his other stats across the board were even better than the previous season.

He absolutely deserved those awards.

Hakeem's career numbers are about the same as Duncan's.

right. And Duncan winning more MVPs and rings gives him the edge.

Nash's numbers aren't even close to other point guards for their careers

nobody is trying to compare Nash to anyone else.

Manu won game 1 and 2 and game 7 ..you act like Tim was perfect during the entire series!

where did I say Tim was perfect. you act like you can't read.

Tim was more consistent during the 7 games series and had to take on the Wallaces.

Manu made some clutch shots down the stretch, but after 8 straight missed shots, Tim nutted up and put the team on his back in the 4th quarter of game 7 and willed the team to win. He finished with 25 and 11. Manu finsihed with 23.

short memories.

[Lars]

Clearly number of MVPs is relevant to this arguement.

Again, if Duncan comes into the league in the mid eighties he wins no MVPs, no DPOY awards and no rings. He would be Al Jefferson, a great player on a nothing team that no one ever talks about and quickly forgoten.

Its all about cir stance, he was incredibly fortunate to come in when he did. Duncan won MVPs because the level of talent in the league was ing awful. If Jordan doesn't play, Hakeem takes atleast 4 of his 6 MVP awards. And if you want to keep playing this 4>2, 2>1 bull , lets go ahead and bring up Robinson's MVP, and then how he was completly dismantled by a far superior player and the true MVP of that season. People want to asterix our championships, fine, but this entire era is post Jordan so it is all one giant *.

[kingmalaki]

Why are you using Jordan and the Bulls to say Olajuwon had tougher compe ion?

Was your point not that the 00's were better than the 90's, as in the teams were better? If so, then I don't see how you are coming to that conclusion.

IMO, the only team that Duncan beat on the way to a le that was better than the teams Hakeem beat on the way (Jazz, Suns, Knicks, Magic, Spurs) were arguably the Lakers, and he only beat them once when their two stars were fighting and their role players went to crap in the postseason. And even then, were those Lakers better than the 80's Lakers...who Hakeem did get through in 86? But who was the tough comp in 99? Who was the tough comp in 05...the Pistons? I would take every team I noted above over them. Who was the tough comp in 07...the Cavs? Nets...no defense Suns...how were they better than the Suns with Barkley and KJ for example?

I'm not seeing Duncan beat better teams. I'm not seeing him going up against superior players at his position, since Dream had more top centers in his era and also had top PF's (McHale, Malone, Barkley, Kemp, etc). I'm not seeing how Duncan wins the "better compe ion" argument.

So I guess my question is what exactly were you trying to argue on the better comp front?

Edit: As far as the Pistons being a better defensive team than the Knicks, we will just have to disagree on that one. Again, the Knicks took the Bulls to 7 and 6 games. The Pistons balled in 04 but where was their touted defense in 05, where you can argue they only made the Finals because Wade and Shaq got hurt. Or 06, when they let LeBron basically score all of the closing points in one game?

As far as the MVP argument goes, unless you think Duncan would be winning MVP's over MJ, Bird or Magic then the point is moot. Steve Nash has just as many MVP's as Kobe and Shaq combined and they are from the same era. He was deserving those years but no way he would have won them in the Magic/Bird/MJ era. , look at the numbers KJ and Stockton were putting up then, and neither player sniffed the sward.

[Blake]

Clearly number of MVPs is relevant to this arguement.

Again, if Duncan comes into the league in the mid eighties he wins no MVPs, no DPOY awards and no rings. He would be Al Jefferson, a great player on a nothing team that no one ever talks about and quickly forgoten.

Its all about cir stance, he was incredibly fortunate to come in when he did. Duncan won MVPs because the level of talent in the league was ing awful. If Jordan doesn't play, Hakeem takes atleast 4 of his 6 MVP awards. And if you want to keep playing this 4>2, 2>1 bull , lets go ahead and bring up Robinson's MVP, and then how he was completly dismantled by a far superior player and the true MVP of that season. People want to asterix our championships, fine, but this entire era is post Jordan so it is all one giant *.

homer post of the day.

congratulations.

[Blake]

As far as the MVP argument goes, unless you think Duncan would be winning MVP's over MJ, Bird or Magic then the point is moot.

Hakeem finished in the top ten in MVP voting just 6 times.

If he had finished 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th every single year, then you might have a point.

Unfortunately for you, you don't.