Real 9-11 Research

[RandomGuy]

Bump, so that WC might see the question.

It is interesting to me to see exactly what the outgrowth would be of actual thermite melting a small portion of the hudreds of thousands of tons of steel in the WTC towers.

[Wild Cobra]

Answer this question then:

Assume that 10 tons of steel were melted to a liquid form from a thermite reaction.

How much radiant heat would that give off if put into a big puddle?

How close could an uninsulated human being stand to that puddle?

Wow, lets see, here's an educted guess...

Keep in mind, you didn't say how large of a puddle... Apply proportional math.

I was exposed to as much as maybe a 10 square feet of surface material at a time after a cell blew, and we were in cleanup. We could get no close than about 5 feet away. All we wore was cotton only clothing. Jeans and shirts, no special clothing. Just very long steel tools. I would say triple that for the same exposed area would be 15 feet, except I made a serious error... I'm going to revise my last post after this one. Emissivity plays a larger role than I thought. For molten aluminum, it is 0.12. For molten steel, it is 0.4, and for fire it is 0.8. My prior calculations were set at the default 1.0. At least emissivity is a linear relationship. With steel at 3 times that of aluminum, at the melting point. This makes that ~10:1 ratio of heat to be 28.85:1. Distance requirements are now more than 5 times greater for molten steel than aluminum.

I don't know how hot the reduction cells ran at. We operated only slightly above melting in the foundry, were I saw temperature gauges. Always mid 1200's F. (melts at 1220 F). I would venture to guess, the converted cells operate at about 800 C to 900 C, even though wiki says:

The operational temperature of the reduction cells is around 950 to 980 °C

. My reason is that we converted to the 4.3 volt lower temperature/power setup, and wiki probably uses the 4.7 volt. We were running 99.9999+% pure aluminum under the 4.7 volts, but the purity dropped under the lower voltage. Hard to really say for sure, but for argument, I will use the 980. This will reduce the ratio rather than accidentally increasing it. Just being conservative... That's allot of savings of power and reduction of heat to reduce the voltage.

Molten aluminum at 660 C = 9333 K = 1,641 watts/meter of heat
Molten aluminum at 980 C = 1253 K = 5,339 W/m (my probable experience)
Molten Steel at 1370 C = 1643 K = 52,612 W/m.
Molten steel at 1427 C = 1700 K = 60,301 W/m. (a little higher than melting)

OK, it's still close to a 10:1 ratio (accidentally) and I would say a person just wearing heavy plain clothing would need to be at least 15 ft. away from an exposed area of molten steel of about 10 square feet. The hotter you make it, or the larger the surface area, the farther away. Aluminum at just melting would be 1641 watts. Back to the greater than 5:1 ratio for distance from the same exposed area between steel and aluminum at the melting point.

Appropriate graphs:

[Wild Cobra]

Now that I gave what I think is an honest, conservative appraisal, I decided to apply the power difference from the same cell operating at 4.7 volts to 4.3 volts. Assuming near linear ratios to the heat apply, the cells would operate at 897 C or 1170 K.

Molten aluminum at 660 C = 9333 K = 1,641 watts/meter of heat
Molten aluminum at 897 C = 1170 K = 4,059 W/m (my probable experience)
Molten Steel at 1370 C = 1643 K = 52,612 W/m.
Molten steel at 1427 C = 1700 K = 60,301 W/m. (a little higher than melting)

Cell temperature to steel at the melting point is now 3.6:1 ratio for the necessary distance. 3.9:1 at the higher melted temperature I listed. The distances rather than 15 ft. would now be to 18 to 19 ft.

[RandomGuy]

Hmm.

Total rubble weight was given at about a million tons.

Much of that was steel.

Go for a conservative estimate of 50% of that.

500,000 tons

Assume that the thermite theory were correct, and that thermite melted one tenth of one percent of that in order to collapse the building in the manner postulated.

500,000*.001= 500 tons of molten steel, interpersed rather evenly within the 7 story tall debris pile.

Assuming that the pile was roughly 50% unmelted, air temperature steel and 50% concrete, what would the average temperature of the whole pile have been?

Assume conservatively that the molten steel was melted at a temperature (Kelvin) that was 1% greater than required to produce liquid steel.

[Wild Cobra]

Hmm.

Total rubble weight was given at about a million tons.

Much of that was steel.

Go for a conservative estimate of 50% of that.

500,000 tons

Assume that the thermite theory were correct, and that thermite melted one tenth of one percent of that in order to collapse the building in the manner postulated.

500,000*.001= 500 tons of molten steel, interpersed rather evenly within the 7 story tall debris pile.

Assuming that the pile was roughly 50% unmelted, air temperature steel and 50% concrete, what would the average temperature of the whole pile have been?

I cannot calculate that. Not qualified. I have seen temperatures estimated from the kinetic energy of the destruction that would likely dwarf anything that the stated thermite would add.

added...

500,000*.001= 500 tons of molten steel, interpersed rather evenly within the 7 story tall debris pile.

Thermite reached as much as 2500 C (2773 K). Ambient temperature is about 290 K

0.001 * 2773 = 2.73
0.999 * 290 = 289.71 +2.73 = 292.44, or a 2.44 degree rise in temperature.

I doubt it added any notable heat compared to the kinetic energy.

[Manu on Fire]

I come to this forum to get away from collage and you post this ?

[RandomGuy]

I cannot calculate that. Not qualified. I have seen temperatures estimated from the kinetic energy of the destruction that would likely dwarf anything that the stated thermite would add.

One would need to know the amount of heat energy in 500 tons of liquid steel, at a temperature of about 1% (kelvin) over what would be required to bring it to a liquid state.

One would need to then take that and apply it to the specific heat (how much energy it would take to heat the material by one degree) of the remaining steel and the specific heat of the remaining concrete.

It is a safe assumption that the liquid would be relatively evenly dispersed (from the very vigorous mixing involved in the collapse itself), and that the heat from that liquid steel would therefore be relatively quickly absorbed by the remaining debris due to that dispersal.

Discount for a moment, the heating effect of the collapse itself.

[RandomGuy]

I come to this forum to get away from collage and you post this ?

Sorry. I love chemistry and physics.

[Wild Cobra]

Sorry. I love chemistry and physics.

Chemistry and physics is how to easily disprove the "truthers."

Even Global Warming!

[RandomGuy]

I cannot calculate that. Not qualified. I have seen temperatures estimated from the kinetic energy of the destruction that would likely dwarf anything that the stated thermite would add.

added...


Thermite reached as much as 2500 C (2773 K). Ambient temperature is about 290 K

0.001 * 2773 = 2.73
0.999 * 290 = 289.71 +2.73 = 292.44, or a 2.44 degree rise in temperature.

I doubt it added any notable heat compared to the kinetic energy.

Hmm. One would also have to consider the heating effects of the fire before hand as well.

Starts to get complicated at that point, also given that there is also the matter of 500,000 tons of concrete and other debris to heat as well.

[unibrow]

Sorry. I love chemistry and physics.

I thought it was algebra!

[Wild Cobra]

I thought it was algebra!

Without algebra, you don't have a necessary tool for chemistry or physics. Sorry you think that's a laughing matter.

We were talking about heat and blackbody radiation, you know.

[Wild Cobra]

People who get that close to large amounts of heat need equipment like this for things beyond "safety policies".

I decided to look up the emissivity and temperature of lava. Emissivity ranges from .96 to .98. Temperature from 700 C to 1200 C.

700 C at .96 emissivity is 15,541 W/m.

1200 C at .98 emissivity is 83,308 W/m.

Quite the range and can get quite hot!

[Laker Lanny]

I feel like I just gave birth to a Science book reading this !

[RandomGuy]

I feel like I just gave birth to a Science book reading this !

Back off man, I'm a scientist.

[RandomGuy]

I thought it was algebra!

[RandomGuy]

I feel like I just gave birth to a Science book reading this !

[France B-boy]

Sorry. I love chemistry and physics.

[Nbadan]

Let's take a side by side look of NIST collapse theory fairy-tail (that RG supports) versus video of the real collapse..

RG might as well be debating the quali es of creationism, because his theory has about as much bases in fact....

[RandomGuy]

Let's take a side by side look of NIST collapse theory fairy-tail (that RG supports) versus video of the real collapse..

RG might as well be debating the quali es of creationism, because his theory has about as much bases in fact....

Dude, that was weak, even for your lame ass.

Seriously? You're going with a single angle, blurry ass video spliced rather inexactly into some slides of the NIST collapse?

I'm honestly insulted. you.

[LnGrrrR]

Let's take a side by side look of NIST collapse theory fairy-tail (that RG supports) versus video of the real collapse..

RG might as well be debating the quali es of creationism, because his theory has about as much bases in fact....

It's fairy-tale, as in a tale (story) containing fantastical elements (such as fairies.) It does not imply that fairies have tails.

[mookie2001]

ive never seen anyone get ruined by nbadan with science

mannyisgod chump have you seen this have you heard about this?

[Galileo]

WTC Electrical Engineer supports AE911Truth

Pe ioner of the Month

— Staff

Richard Humenn, photo from time period of WTC buildings construction, joins pe ion effort. Among more than 600 architects and engineers who have signed our pe ion, one doesn't get much closer to the inner workings of the WTC than Richard Humenn, our Pe ioner of the Month for April. Humenn was the Senior Project Engineer-Electrical who worked on the construction of the WTC from the bidding period to several decades afterward.

Humenn earned a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering from Brooklyn Polytechnic Ins ute in 1954. Shortly after graduating, he spent three years as a first lieutenant and electrical engineer in the US Army, building power plants in South Korea after the Korean war. Upon his return in the late 1950s, he went to work for Joseph Loring, whose firm would eventually win the electrical contract for the construction of the WTC. He began his work on the WTC project around 1963 and continued to be involved until his retirement in 1997.

Last year, AE911Truth arranged an interview with Humenn to get further insight. In that discussion, Humenn admits the building collapses didn't look right. Recalling the robust cage structure of the core columns, exterior columns and hefty girders, he said, "I couldn't visualize the core columns coming down with the floors." He was also surprised that the collapse initiation was at the top instead of the point of impact. After watching the presentation by Richard Gage, Humenn says, "I was compelled to want to see some further investigation."

http://www.ae911truth.org/info/50

641 architectural and engineering professionals and 3564 other supporters including A&E students have signed the pe ion demanding of Congress a truly independent investigation.

http://www.ae911truth.org/

[ChumpDumper]

ive never seen anyone get ruined by nbadan with science

mannyisgod chump have you seen this have you heard about this?

Of course I have seen the simulation. It's a shame we don't have more footage of other sides of the building to see what's going on there. As it is, there is no reason to believe the collapse should look exactly like the simulation.

Props to dan for finally posting a video of the entire collapse.

[Wild Cobra]

Let's take a side by side look of NIST collapse theory fairy-tail (that RG supports) versus video of the real collapse..

RG might as well be debating the quali es of creationism, because his theory has about as much bases in fact....

You really belivive they are good enough to create an accurate model?

That was one model of how many?

I guess you Cherry pick for a living. A friend from High school has a Cherry Orchard in The Dalles, Oregon. Let me know if you need a job.