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  1. #76
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    I went out of my way to use it (and I know you can't read) because there are good links to some very solid sources in that thread.

    You say no one has debunked his findings...maybe because he didn't find anything. The current search groups and organized parties with the backing of millions of dollars and the support of the bulk of the industry are breaking ground daily on proving that there are planets out there that can in fact support life like ours. There work is leaps and bounds more influential and reputable than Watkins work.

    You know what I don't care. I don't like you and I don't like discussing things with you. I'm done engaging in conversation with you. You have now reached Angel Luv status.

  2. #77
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    because you have a great idea about the size of the universe and scientists that actually research the issue don't.

    great logic.
    No offense, but you dont have to be a scientist to try and fathom the immensity of the universe.

    For example,

    Just this past century, blackholes were only theoretically made possible by Einstein's Theory of Relativity. Yet, their existence was not only questioned, but outright dismissed by some of Einstein's contemporaries (even Einstein himself, iirc?).

    The doubters of the time couldnt fathom what a blackhole would mean in the universal picture. A tear in space-time? Are you ing joking? A gravitational force so strong not even light can escape?! Foolhardy, indeed.

    Fast forward 50 short years, not only do blackholes exist with evidence, but theyre centric to a stable galaxy. I dont know if its been proven beyond a reasonable doubt yet, but that there is a blackhole at the center of every galaxy in the universe.

    This once mysterious, theoretical anamoly turns out to be one of the universe's essential building blocks. Its single most powerful, destructive force is the sole provider of stability and planet/star creation in every galaxy. Without blackholes, we wouldnt even exist as there wouldnt be enough gravitational force that allows the creation of such large masses of matter.

    Sure, we'd still have planets and stars (i think), but there would be far, FAR less in the universe, so incredibly dispersed, they might as well not exist at all. In actuality, I dont know for sure what a universe without blackholes is...I might be wrong, it might mean that star creation is impossible, but I dont know. Impossible seems too much...

    Galaxies?! Wouldnt happen, period, thats for sure.

    The theory of relativity was/is a radical idea. Radical in the sense that the world of physics afterword was an incredibly different landscape. With every one question answered ( how the do you explain a galaxy? there is no known gravitational force that could possibly hold the mass of a galaxy together?), a million more are asked (a rip in space-time?! whats the biggest known one? What purpose do they serve? WTF?!).

    Point is, most humans lack the ability to see a world/universe that doesnt have their existence at the highest magnitude of importance. Whether its a belief in God and that he took a week out of his busy, Universe-creating schedule to craft us in His image or that our existence is the single most unique quirk of nature's statistical capabilities.

    Either way, it attaches entirely too much significance to humanity as some example of Nature's/God's ultimate gift of some sort. We are no gift, we are not unique and only time will tell us the whole truth about that (if we dont kill ourselves first....Im betting our extinction comes much sooner than the discovery of life elsewhere).

    Of course, it shouldn't surprise me, coming from someone who downplays actual experts in the field if their findings don't agree with his opinion.

    what a maroon.
    I know youre talking to B2B here, but his agreement was with me. I dont discount the opinion those in the field. On the contrary, I value them (of course, theyre the experts, not me).

    But again, it is my belief that humans think of a universe to centric about them. Yeah, so and so scientist says life somewhere else is highly unlikely to the point of impossibility. Great, because I can find another scientist who says that life somewhere else is so highly likely its an inevitability.

    Queue the crazy algorithm that supports each man's claim and where are we left?

    Right where we started.

  3. #78
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    I went out of my way to use it (and I know you can't read) because there are good links to some very solid sources in that thread.
    I already said I've already read most of those "sources" and links.

    Pretty apparent now that you can't copy and paste real sources.

    You say no one has debunked his findings...maybe because he didn't find anything.
    He came up with a mathematical model of the probability of intelligent life on planets other than Earth.

    Either you can't read or don't want to.

    The current search groups and organized parties with the backing of millions of dollars and the support of the bulk of the industry are breaking ground daily on proving that there are planets out there that can in fact support life like ours. There work is leaps and bounds more influential and reputable than Watkins work.


    I'll save you the trouble, straw man.

    http://kepler.nasa.gov/

    let me know when the Kepler mission finds intelligent life.

    You know what I don't care. I don't like you and I don't like discussing things with you. I'm done engaging in conversation with you. You have now reached Angel Luv status.
    I wouldn't like me either if I kept getting owned this much.

    what's somewhat ironic is that you easily dismiss angel luv as a kook for believing in God, yet here you are saying a scientist from a university is an idiot for making his argument against the probability of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.

    nice job, kook.

  4. #79
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    Apology accepted.

  5. #80
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    No offense, but you dont have to be a scientist to try and fathom the immensity of the universe.
    no you don't, but I'm pretty sure though that scientists take into account the vastness of the universe when creating probability theories such as the 'rare earth' theory

    I know youre talking to B2B here, but his agreement was with me. I dont discount the opinion those in the field. On the contrary, I value them (of course, theyre the experts, not me).

    But again, it is my belief that humans think of a universe to centric about them. Yeah, so and so scientist says life somewhere else is highly unlikely to the point of impossibility. Great, because I can find another scientist who says that life somewhere else is so highly likely its an inevitability.

    Queue the crazy algorithm that supports each man's claim and where are we left?

    Right where we started.
    Immenseness and vastness =/= probability

    Is it possible that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe? absolutely

    Is it highly probable based on the sheer volume of planets in the universe? no

  6. #81
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    just because there are a bazillion apologies in the universe does not mean there is a high probability you will ever receive one.

  7. #82
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    just because there are a bazillion apologies in the universe does not mean there is a high probability you will ever receive one.
    oh okay. Apology for the apology accepted.

  8. #83
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    oh okay. Apology for the apology accepted.
    keep telling yourself there's an apology out there meant especially for you.

    I'm sorry you're an idiot.

  9. #84
    Forum Official Personal Life Coach BacktoBasics's Avatar
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    keep telling yourself there's an apology out there meant especially for you.

    I'm sorry you're an idiot.
    Oh you're sorry. No problem. Apology accepted.

  10. #85
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    Coincidentally, my zoology professor reminded us today that "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

  11. #86
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    Coincidentally, my zoology professor reminded us today that "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer.
    'i don't know' is the only reasonable answer, but humans myself included are not reasonable.

  12. #87
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Oh you're sorry. No problem. Apology accepted.
    You're welcome. I truly am sorry you are an idiot.

    Accepting you are an idiot is half the battle, so kudos to you.

  13. #88
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Coincidentally, my zoology professor reminded us today that "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer.
    b2b is obviously not your zoology professor.

  14. #89
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Immenseness and vastness =/= probability

    Is it possible that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe? absolutely

    Is it highly probable based on the sheer volume of planets in the universe? no
    My math skills are rotting on the vine...care to explain?

    Are you saying probability takes into account the vastness of the universe? Because any formula that claims to do so should be regarded with skepticism.

    My point was, there are equally brilliant physicists who hold true the exact opposite viewpoints.

    Like someone else said "I dont know" is a perfectly acceptable answer, and I think I have maintained that stance. But this conversation ventured into opinion and I gave mine and the reason for it.

  15. #90
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    My math skills are rotting on the vine...care to explain?

    Are you saying probability takes into account the vastness of the universe? Because any formula that claims to do so should be regarded with skepticism.

    My point was, there are equally brilliant physicists who hold true the exact opposite viewpoints.

    Like someone else said "I dont know" is a perfectly acceptable answer, and I think I have maintained that stance. But this conversation ventured into opinion and I gave mine and the reason for it.

    Any formula on both sides of the discussion cannot possibly include all known or unknown factors.

    All we know about life is what we observe here on Earth. To assume that because the universe is so vast that somewhere out there, life is able to survive and thrive on a planet like Jupiter, is faulty logic.

    Same thing with thinking that just because we exist and live in a vast universe that has approx 70 sextillion stars in the visible universe, it means that there just has to be intelligent life elsewhere.

    Thus the math model that was drawn up by Andrew Watson.

    on a side note, has nobody at all around here read up on Fermi's Paradox?

    The Fermi Paradox is the apparent contradiction between the high probability extraterrestrial civilizations' existence and the lack of contact with such civilizations.
    Here's a decent article on the subject:

    The other side of the Fermi paradox
    by Michael Huang

    Monday, February 19, 2007

    The Fermi paradox—the estimation that extraterrestrial civilizations are common and would naturally expand into space, contradicting the lack of evidence that they exist anywhere—is the subject of fascinating speculation and guesswork. Every possible fate of extraterrestrial intelligence is proposed and explored. These thought experiments are not only interesting in their own right, but may help evaluate the state of a more terrestrial civilization. What will happen to humankind in the future? By examining the possible futures of extraterrestrial civilizations, we are simultaneously examining the possible futures of our own civilization. Put in another way, if an alien civilization somewhere had their own version of the Fermi paradox, they would be speculating on our future in the same way that we speculate on theirs.

    Stephen Webb’s book on the Fermi paradox, If the Universe Is Teeming with Aliens… Where Is Everybody? Fifty Solutions to the Fermi Paradox and the Problem of Extraterrestrial Life, puts its fifty solutions into three broad categories: “They Are Here”, extraterrestrials are in our vicinity, but hidden somehow; “They Exist But Have Not Yet Communicated”, they exist on a faraway world and have not reached us yet; and “They Do Not Exist”, they have never existed in the first place, or they have existed but have since gone extinct. Each of these categories has an equivalent for future human civilization: “We Will Exist Everywhere”, we will spread out from Earth and colonize space; “We Will Exist On Earth Only”, we will remain on Earth and fail to colonize space; “We Will Not Exist”, we will go extinct.

    By examining the possible futures of extraterrestrial civilizations, we are simultaneously examining the possible futures of our own civilization.
    Not every solution to the Fermi paradox is applicable to human civilization. All those which state that extraterrestrial intelligence does not exist in the first place are irrelevant (unless you argue that there is no intelligent life on Earth!). But many others are relevant and interesting predictions of the future of humankind.

    “Solution 10: They Have Not Had Time to Reach Us” becomes “We Have Not Had Time to Reach Them”, which is appropriate for human civilization today, considering the short time that humans have existed, and the even shorter time that humans have had spaceflight. “Solution 14: They Stay at Home…” becomes “We Stay at Home”, arguing that we will stay on Earth due to apathy, technology, economics or politics (e.g. Proxmire effect or Park hypothesis. “Solution 15: …and Surf the Net” deals with the creation of virtual reality worlds so impressive that real world challenges, such as space colonization, pale in comparison. Games and virtual worlds such as World of Warcraft and Second Life have already gained a reputation for being addictive and all-consuming. Future generations of these immersive fantasy worlds will compel more people to neglect the real world.

    While staying on Earth is a mediocre future for humankind, of course the worst possible future is extinction. Webb discusses gamma ray bursts and asteroid collisions as natural extinction events. A technological civilization is itself a risk, with its nuclear and biological weapons. In addition, Webb describes the exotic possibility of powerful, autonomous alien weapons (Solution 22: Berserkers) that either deliberately or inadvertently destroy all civilizations that they find.

    There is a significant connection between the categories of “We Will Exist On Earth Only” and “We Will Not Exist”. Webb explained the strong motive for all civilizations—both extraterrestrial and human—to pursue colonization: “…in any case it seems a wise idea for a species to expand into space to guard against the possibility of planetary disaster”. Remaining on a single planet increases the risk of extinction, as Stephen Hawking and many others have stated.

    The Fermi paradox is based on the premise that it is natural, logical and right for extraterrestrial civilizations to colonize space. The other side of the Fermi paradox is that it is natural, logical, and right for human civilization to colonize space. Anti-human-spaceflight advocates tend to hold the contradictory idea that colonization is alright for extraterrestrials, but wrong and immoral for us. However, colonizing and populating space is advantageous for every civilization; whether it happens to be extraterrestrial or terrestrial is beside the point.

    If extraterrestrial civilizations do not exist, it is even more important for humans to survive and colonize space.
    Webb’s 50th solution is the one that he believes is the most likely. Unfortunately for extraterrestrial enthusiasts, the solution is depressingly pessimistic: “…the only resolution of the Fermi paradox that makes sense to me—is that we are alone.” Webb’s preferred solution is highly controversial, but it satisfies Ockham’s razor; out of all the Fermi paradox explanations, it is the simplest one. On the other hand, the solution is only as good as the evidence it is based on. New evidence could lead to a different solution to the paradox.

    If extraterrestrial civilizations do not exist, it is even more important for humans to survive and colonize space. If we do not do it, then no one else will. If extraterrestrial civilizations exist, the task will be shared. In any case, the ultimate goal for all civilizations is to spread life throughout the galaxy, to transform a largely dead galaxy into a living one.

    http://www.thespacereview.com/article/810/1

    Opinion is all anyone really has....... of course, if you are b2b, you are "arrogant" and an "idiot" if you think we are alone.

  16. #91
    Believe.
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    All we know about life is what we observe here on Earth. To assume that because the universe is so vast that somewhere out there, life is able to survive and thrive on a planet like Jupiter, is faulty logic.
    Sure, that's faulty logic. We have no proof that life exists on Jupiter, so it wouldn't make any sense to firmly believe that life existed on a Jupiter like planet somewhere.

    However, as many galaxies, as many stars as there are out there, isn't is reasonable to think that an earth like planet exists SOMEWHERE? How low would the probability for one forming be for this one to be the ONLY example in the universe of a planet that formed within the habitable zone of a star?

    Are you saying that among the "sextillion" stars out there, that this is the only habitable planet?

  17. #92
    Believe.
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    Also, not seeing where Fermi's paradox disproves the existence of life in the universe.

    It raises an interesting question, "why is there no proof" But I think there are plenty of reasonable answers. The article you list even mentioned a book of 50 answers to the paradox, a full 2/3rds of which assume that their is life out there. I obviously haven't read the book, and have no idea of it's credibility, but I think it's safe to say that this isn't a shower stopper and does not negate the possibility (and probability) of extraterrestrial life.

  18. #93
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    However, as many galaxies, as many stars as there are out there, isn't is reasonable to think that an earth like planet exists SOMEWHERE? How low would the probability for one forming be for this one to be the ONLY example in the universe of a planet that formed within the habitable zone of a star?
    how many planets do you know of that are capable of sustaining life?

    Are you saying that among the "sextillion" stars out there, that this is the only habitable planet?
    Why is there an assumption that just because a planet is habitable that life automatically will spring from it?

  19. #94
    Believe.
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    how many planets do you know of that are capable of sustaining life?
    I know of one, just like you. Discovering exoplanets is a recent phenomenon, and they're finding more and more. So we know that
    A) Planets exists outside of our solar system
    B) The universe is a pretty big place
    C) It's happened once, and there is no evidence that it can't happen again.


    Why is there an assumption that just because a planet is habitable that life automatically will spring from it?
    100% of the habitable planets we know of have created life. Life has formed in every nook and cranny of the planet, even in places that we thought were inhospitable. Life so far has seemed somewhat resilient.

    I grant you, a sample size of one gives no insight into the probability. But again I tell you, we know the probability is greater than 0. We know the probability of a habitable planet forming is greater than 0. We know the probability of intelligent life forming is greater than 0. And we know that the universe is massive, anything with a probability greater than 0 will probably happen multiple times. I don't see why it's hard to admit that it's probable.

  20. #95
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Also, not seeing where Fermi's paradox disproves the existence of life in the universe.
    The Fermi paradox does not prove or disprove anything.

    Do you know what the word "paradox" means?

    It raises an interesting question, "why is there no proof" But I think there are plenty of reasonable answers. The article you list even mentioned a book of 50 answers to the paradox, a full 2/3rds of which assume that their is life out there. I obviously haven't read the book, and have no idea of it's credibility, but I think it's safe to say that this isn't a shower stopper and does not negate the possibility (and probability) of extraterrestrial life.
    I agree that you obviously haven't read the book.

  21. #96
    Believe.
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    The Fermi paradox does not prove or disprove anything.

    Do you know what the word "paradox" means?
    Quite aware of what it means. I also don't think this is a true paradox. Interesting thought experiment, yes, paradox.....not quite.



    I agree that you obviously haven't read the book.
    I'm glad we can agree on things I haven't read. At least I know there can be common ground SOMEWHERE.

  22. #97
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    I know of one, just like you. Discovering exoplanets is a recent phenomenon, and they're finding more and more. So we know that
    A) Planets exists outside of our solar system
    B) The universe is a pretty big place
    C) It's happened once, and there is no evidence that it can't happen again.

    100% of the habitable planets we know of have created life. Life has formed in every nook and cranny of the planet, even in places that we thought were inhospitable. Life so far has seemed somewhat resilient.

    I grant you, a sample size of one gives no insight into the probability. But again I tell you, we know the probability is greater than 0. We know the probability of a habitable planet forming is greater than 0. We know the probability of intelligent life forming is greater than 0. And we know that the universe is massive, anything with a probability greater than 0 will probably happen multiple times. I don't see why it's hard to admit that it's probable.
    how did we get back to page 1?

    You're right, sample size of one does nothing for probability. A sample size of 2 does everything.

    I have no problem admitting intelligent life is possible. Probable is a different matter.

  23. #98
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Quite aware of what it means. I also don't think this is a true paradox. Interesting thought experiment, yes, paradox.....not quite.
    aside from your opinion on the Fermi paradix being an actual paradox, the point is that it does not prove or disprove anything.

    I'm glad we can agree on things I haven't read. At least I know there can be common ground SOMEWHERE.
    Great. I would suggest reading it before making "it's safe to say" assumptions about it.

  24. #99
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    I have no problem admitting intelligent life is possible. Probable is a different matter.
    I'm glad you admit something we already know exists is possible elsewhere in the universe. When you started talking about this being the only habitable planet anywhere, I was worried about you.

  25. #100
    Believe.
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    aside from your opinion on the Fermi paradix being an actual paradox, the point is that it does not prove or disprove anything.
    Then why bring it up?

    Great. I would suggest reading it before making "it's safe to say" assumptions about it.
    I can come up with 2 or 3 explanations to the "paradox" off the top of my head. That is really the source of my assumption. That said, I thought you were bringing it up to disprove the existence of life. Since you weren't, consider it dropped.

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