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  1. #451
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    wow.

    science is proving more and more that the Earth is roughly 4+ billion years old.

    ....and thanks to the rate of expansion of the universe, it is pretty easy to calculate that the age of the universe itself is somewhere more than 13 billion years old.

    Don't worry though.........if 1000 years = a blink of God's eye, then you don't really have to take the 7 days of creation so literal.
    scientific research is comprised mainly of atheists, why doesn't it surprise you ALL their findings are supporting naturalism?
    Last edited by z0sa; 05-01-2009 at 12:43 PM.

  2. #452
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    1. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with drinking either...just drunkenness, which was my original statement.

    The point to the hypothetical was to say that everyone is so concerned about losing things like their sex and their drugs, but fail to see the greatness of evil being defeated.
    Hey, I'm all for evil being defeated. That's why I joined the Air Force, among other things. I'm just not comfortable with deciding for the world; I can only decide for myself. (And what's so wrong with sex and drugs? lol)

    2. When God does come down here, it'll be too late. But hey, I'm not here to convert anyone...your beliefs are yours.
    That never made sense to me. When God comes down, can't I believe in him then? Isn't a soul eternal?

    Again, if God has found a way to convince you to follow his word, why hasn't he found a way to convince me yet? Doesn't seem quite fair.

    3.Because a true belief in God will result in those moral behaviors. See the verse in James that Blake erroneously referenced. What that chapter is doing is calling out the hypocrisy of those who claim to believe, but deny Jesus by their lifestyle.
    Is it your opinion that only those who believe in God can be truly moral?

  3. #453
    God Talks To Me. angel_luv's Avatar
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    Does the Bible say how long ago God created the Earth?
    No it does not.

    But I don't think Creation was the long process Evolutionist speak about.
    I believe God said ( for example) let there be a tree and that instantly there was a tree.

  4. #454
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    scientific research is comprised mainly of atheists, why doesn't it surprise you ALL their findings are supporting naturalism?
    It's somewhat tough to prove evidence of God.

  5. #455
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    No it does not.

    But I don't think Creation was the long process Evolutionist speak about.
    I believe God said ( for example) let there be a tree and that instantly there was a tree.
    Cmon Angel_Luv... you have Bible verses for everything. Let's see some!

    Do you think that the Bible is to be taken literally?

  6. #456
    God Talks To Me. angel_luv's Avatar
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    wow.

    I'm sorry, but that it is extremely close minded and you are doing yourself no favors.
    That is your opinion and you are allowed it, just as I am allowed to proceed as I will in spite of it.

    I mean that not disrespectfully, but as a matter of fact.

  7. #457
    It is what it is. I Love Me Some Me's Avatar
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    To me, there is no ultimate difference between God creating a new reality without sin, and some non-supernatural theoretical person who could not sin. Is the only justifying difference the fact that God creates the first but not the latter? How is God not 'tricking' our brains by altering the reality of everyone in Heaven?
    I disagree with your conclusion, but can kinda see how you got there.

    I would just say that if reality is changed, and your brain processes that change, then there is no mind alteration necessary.

  8. #458
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=I Love Me Some Me;3354979]
    1. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with drinking either...just drunkenness, which was my original statement.

    The point to the hypothetical was to say that everyone is so concerned about losing things like their sex and their drugs, but fail to see the greatness of evil being defeated.
    drunkeness in public is currently illegal, so I think we can all agree it's already wrong.

    how is exactly is drunkeness in your own house evil?

    3.Because a true belief in God will result in those moral behaviors. See the verse in James that Blake erroneously referenced. What that chapter is doing is calling out the hypocrisy of those who claim to believe, but deny Jesus by their lifestyle.
    Like i said, you can try to explain it, but it is pretty clear in what it says.

    and James is the only one that pretty much references the importance of works.

    Paul continues to preach that faith through grace is all you need.

    If Paul is right, then what James says is irrelevant.

    If I am a mass murderer and I repent and believe at the last second, I am in Heaven.

    If I repent and believe at the age of 21 but go the rest of my life on killing spree after unrepentant killing spree, do I still get into Heaven?

  9. #459
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    That is your opinion and you are allowed it, just as I am allowed to proceed as I will in spite of it.

    I mean that not disrespectfully, but as a matter of fact.
    Do you literally believe that the Israelites crossed the Red Sea?

    What if I told you that King James translated it wrong and it should be the "Reed Sea"?

  10. #460
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    It's somewhat tough to prove evidence of God.
    There's plenty of cir stantial evidence that supports a God(s).

    Imminent design in the universe.
    There's life on planet earth (did it evolve? maybe, but there's really no chance life was conceived naturally).

    What about the annunaki? There's evidence that ancient aliens may have already contacted humans, or had a say in their evolution - but you don't see scientists going for that, either, even though there's likely evidence supporting/dispelling the theory somewhere unfound. Not a great example, but just somewhere mainstream scientists said "its bull " and didn't follow up.

    Scientists subjectively take the evidence and throw their naturalistic beliefs all over it. It's painfully obvious to anyone with an objective eye. Is it how the vast majority of science works? Yes, naturalistic causes generally are the reason for everything. But its because God put them into action. Ignoring what is possibly the Cause of every Cause is stupid and closedminded, if you ask me.

    Where would I like to see improvement?

    Less bull in our high/middle school science books. There's plenty of misinformation about naturalism in these books, and its been proven time and time again by creationists. Don't preach, just put the right info in there so people can make up their own minds (its funny that these textbook writers take it so much upon themself to impress evolution/abiogenesis and our "naturalistic origins" upon our young minds that they will outright lie about certain issues like the actual results of Miller's experiment yielding huge amounts of tar).
    Last edited by z0sa; 05-01-2009 at 01:04 PM.

  11. #461
    God Talks To Me. angel_luv's Avatar
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    Cmon Angel_Luv... you have Bible verses for everything. Let's see some!

    Do you think that the Bible is to be taken literally?
    Since you asked.

    Genesis 1:1-5

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
    Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
    God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.
    God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

    Genesis 1:6-10

    And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

    And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
    All through the chapter, Genesis 1, it states what God said He wanted and that what God said He wanted was.
    It is written in a way that makes me believe God said it and it instantly appeared. That is what I understand from the wording of the text.

    Also in Genesis 1:31 it says, " God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

    That to me again emphasizes that all of it was done by the sixth day.

    I take the Bible literally as it is written.

    When it says that Jesus told such and such as a parable, then I take it as a parable.

    Example Matthew 13: 31-43

    Matthew 13: 31-43

    He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mus seed, which a man took and planted in his field.
    Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."
    He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."

    Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

    So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
    "I will open my mouth in parables,
    I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."[c]


    Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
    He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.

    The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

    "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

    Otherwise I take the Bible as it is written- as an actual occurence and absolute fact- such as I do the account of Creation.
    Last edited by angel_luv; 05-01-2009 at 01:05 PM. Reason: I forgot to answer LongrrrR question about taking the Bible literally

  12. #462
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    I disagree with your conclusion, but can kinda see how you got there.

    I would just say that if reality is changed, and your brain processes that change, then there is no mind alteration necessary.
    Well, God's just cheating in that instance. Instead of altering everyone's brains individually, he just alters the world they're in. It ends up with the same general effect I find.

    But I see that is an important aspect for your free will POV. I will respectfully agree to disagree that it makes a difference. *shakes hands*

  13. #463
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    scientific research is comprised mainly of atheists, why doesn't it surprise you ALL their findings are supporting naturalism?
    great. Then please explain how we can see light from stars that are millions of light years away.

  14. #464
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    There's plenty of cir stantial evidence that supports a God(s).

    Imminent design in the universe.
    There's life on planet earth (did it evolve? maybe, but there's really no chance life was conceived naturally).

    What about the annunaki? There's evidence that ancient aliens may have already contacted humans, or had a say in their evolution - but you don't see scientists going for that, either, even though there's likely evidence supporting/dispelling the theory somewhere unfound. Not a great example, but just somewhere mainstream scientists said "its bull " and didn't follow up.

    Scientists subjectively take the evidence and throw their naturalistic beliefs all over it. It's painfully obvious to anyone with an objective eye. Is it how the vast majority of science works? Yes, naturalistic causes generally are the reason for everything. But its because God put them into action.
    so you believe in evolution then.

  15. #465
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    There's plenty of cir stantial evidence that supports a God(s).

    Imminent design in the universe.
    There's life on planet earth (did it evolve? maybe, but there's really no chance life was conceived naturally).

    What about the annunaki? There's evidence that ancient aliens may have already contacted humans, or had a say in their evolution - but you don't see scientists going for that, either, even though there's likely evidence supporting/dispelling the theory somewhere unfound. Not a great example, but just somewhere mainstream scientists said "its bull " and didn't follow up.

    Scientists subjectively take the evidence and throw their naturalistic beliefs all over it. It's painfully obvious to anyone with an objective eye. Is it how the vast majority of science works? Yes, naturalistic causes generally are the reason for everything. But its because God put them into action.
    One, the evidence you cited may support some sort of 'higher being', but not necessarily the God of the Bible. And then again, you're only stepping back one step. If it's nearly impossible for life to come about on its own, then how did God come about? (I expect the "He's always been there" rebuttal, which can not be proven either way.)

    Two, everyone has their own biases, but ultimately the facts will out. If there were enough facts proving incontrivertibly some form of higher intelligence, then I believe the science community would have to change their ideals to reflect that. (And rioting and general chaos would probably ensue.)

    Look at any of the big revelations in history.... Einstein, Galileo, etc etc. Widely panned when they made their predictions/hypothesis, but the data proved them out, and so the scientific community readjusted their thinking to account for that.

  16. #466
    Maaaaaannnn fuck.... E20's Avatar
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    Show your work or you get no points.
    We actually just started to use this equation and I was like FTW. The course we're using it in isn't calc based, but is there calc involved in the equation or is it as simple as that? I'd assume the delta E and delta M had something to do with derivitaves or implicit diff/DE's

  17. #467
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    so you believe in evolution then.
    generally, not really. There's plenty of room in the DNA for something called Adaptation, which means, for example, a bird may completely change its coloring, type of beak, even overall size - but never truly evolved, instead staying within the overall constraints of its genetic coding.

    i don't act like I know the answer to this question: there's plenty of evidence which DOES support evolution. But there's relatively only a tiny bit of evidence for abiogenesis which means something started us up, even if natural selection was the ultimately decider in who lived and who died.

  18. #468
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Since you asked.

    Genesis 1:1-5

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
    Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
    God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.
    God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
    Sounds like a "Big Bang" to me, eh?

    Genesis 1:6-10

    And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

    And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
    Tectonic plate movement...

    All through the chapter, Genesis 1, it states what God said He wanted and that what God said He wanted was.
    It is written in a way that makes me believe God said it and it instantly appeared. That is what I understand from the wording of the text.


    Also in Genesis 1:31 it says, " God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

    That to me again emphasizes that all of it was done by the sixth day.
    But how do you know that a day to God is the same as a day to us? Perhaps the Earth revolved much more slowly then In fact, weren't the stars created after the Earth? That would imply that a day may not mean the same to us as it does to Him.

    As well, it does seem to be instant, but that could be a misunderstanding on our part. After all, I could say, "My wife has just become pregnant, and she will have a baby!" and the next line could logically be "And it was so". Doesn't mean it happened instantly.

    I'm sure you've guessed, but I'm somewhat playing Devil's Advocate so you can look at the Bible from a different viewpoint.

  19. #469
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    One, the evidence you cited may support some sort of 'higher being', but not necessarily the God of the Bible.
    Agreed.

    And then again, you're only stepping back one step. If it's nearly impossible for life to come about on its own, then how did God come about? (I expect the "He's always been there" rebuttal, which can not be proven either way.)
    I have a couple different 'God' theories.

    1) The exact rebuttal you expected. God is ethereal, and functions outside the universe - therefore, is not constrained to the physical limits of this universe

    2) God is a timeless being which exists within the universe as some space creature - perhaps of such gigantic size and mental capacity that it serves to function as God would, and having existed since during or even before the big bang possibly, does not constrain itself to this universe's limits (but may be constrained to a different universe with different physics)

    Not great, but I'd like to think its the best humanity could think up rationally while still entertaining the God concept.

    One problem is the amount of space in the universe - supposedly some 96% of it is unseen dark matter (this is actually evidence against an ancient universe, but that's a different subject). What is this dark matter and what purpose can it serve? Could an ethereal being survive in dark matter?

    Additionally, If such a being could travel from universe to universe in the 'multiverse,' he would be the equivalent of God.


    Two, everyone has their own biases, but ultimately the facts will out. If there were enough facts proving incontrivertibly some form of higher intelligence, then I believe the science community would have to change their ideals to reflect that. (And rioting and general chaos would probably ensue.)
    This is often the argument of any naturalist. Science is proof - not belief. The problem is, much of the evidence is highly subjective and may be interpreted to support a variety of different theories. Rather than take the extra effort and work through them, they simply assume it always supports evolution.

    Look at any of the big revelations in history.... Einstein, Galileo, etc etc. Widely panned when they made their predictions/hypothesis, but the data proved them out, and so the scientific community readjusted their thinking to account for that.
    All of Darwin's observations were no real signs of evolution - all were consistently within the parameters of life's natural Adaptation, which was perfectly within any creature's preset genetic code without need for mutation. Mankind has taken this possibility of a completely naturalistic origin, and applied it everywhere possible rather than continue weighing the God option due to a "lack" of evidence. Like I said, the imminent design around us denotes a creator, at least to me.
    Last edited by z0sa; 05-01-2009 at 01:31 PM.

  20. #470
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    generally, not really. There's plenty of room in the DNA for something called Adaptation, which means, for example, a bird may completely change its coloring, type of beak, even overall size - but never truly evolved, instead staying within the overall constraints of its genetic coding.

    i don't act like I know the answer to this question: there's plenty of evidence which DOES support evolution. But there's relatively only a tiny bit of evidence for abiogenesis which means something started us up, even if natural selection was the ultimately decider in who lived and who died.
    yeah, I tend to generally agree with that assessment.

  21. #471
    God Talks To Me. angel_luv's Avatar
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    Do you literally believe that the Israelites crossed the Red Sea?

    What if I told you that King James translated it wrong and it should be the "Reed Sea"?
    Yes I do believe the Israelites crossed the Red Sea.


    For your consideration:



    http://www.discoverynews.us/red_sea.html


    Forty miles south of Eilat, Israel, on the western shore of the Gulf of Aqaba is a huge sandy beach and peninsula that researchers have now verified as the Red Sea crossing site where Moses and the people of Israel escaped the wrath of the Pharaoh of Egypt.

    The site was first identified by a Biblical archeological explorer named Ron Wyatt after he flew over the area in a small private plane in 1978. Wyatt reasoned that evidence should still exist at the Red Sea crossing site where God miraculously separated the waters and delivered His people from Egypt.

    Wyatt’s first evidence was the discovery of a large stone column lying in the water. Later, on the eastern shore of the Red Sea, opposite Neweiba Beach, Wyatt found a matching column with an inscription that could still be read. It was erected by King Solomon as a memorial to the Great God of Israel Who delivered His people from the armies of Egypt.

    Wyatt also began to find evidence of chariot wheels underwater. They had been preserved by coral that had attached themselves to the four, six and eight spoked wheels which were typical of the wheels used in the 18th Dynasty. He recovered the metal of a wheel with the remains of eight spokes and gave this significant find to Nassif Mohammed Hassan, Director of Antiquities in Cairo. Mr. Hassan immediately identified the artifact as a chariot wheel dating 3500 years ago during the 18th Dynasty, the only time the ancient Egyptians used an eight spoked wheel.

    Repeated dives by Wyatt and his two sons, over a stretch of nearly two miles, revealed that chariot parts literally littered the area. It is estimated that Pharaoh’s army of nearly 250,000 soldiers was totally destroyed while Moses and his unarmed Hebrew nation were miraculously delivered as described in Exodus 14:28-30 – “And the waters returned and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came to the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the seashore.”

    What an incredible confirmation of the literal Exodus through the Red Sea!

    I post that article not in defense of the Bible.
    On the contrary, I believe this article because it lines up with the Bible.

    As I told T-Long, I support Science and it's discoveries so long as it gives God the glory He is due.

  22. #472
    God Talks To Me. angel_luv's Avatar
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    Another article about the Chariot wheels.

    http://conservativecolloquium.wordpr...nd-in-red-sea/

  23. #473
    God Talks To Me. angel_luv's Avatar
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    Sounds like a "Big Bang" to me, eh?



    Tectonic plate movement...



    But how do you know that a day to God is the same as a day to us? Perhaps the Earth revolved much more slowly then In fact, weren't the stars created after the Earth? That would imply that a day may not mean the same to us as it does to Him.

    As well, it does seem to be instant, but that could be a misunderstanding on our part. After all, I could say, "My wife has just become pregnant, and she will have a baby!" and the next line could logically be "And it was so". Doesn't mean it happened instantly.

    I'm sure you've guessed, but I'm somewhat playing Devil's Advocate so you can look at the Bible from a different viewpoint.

    If you mean Big bang as in:" God said it and 'Bang!' There it was" ( to borrow the quote from a once popular church kid t-shirt) than I am with you. Otherwise, no.

    I don't think God is out to confuse anyone. I think God told us a day because He meant a day, as we understand a day.
    That is my belief.

    Silly you! Why would you attempt to advocate the devil to a Christian?
    Surely you did not expect success.


    There is no middle ground. The Bible is either true or it is not.
    I believe it is true- thus no need for any other point of view.

  24. #474
    God Talks To Me. angel_luv's Avatar
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    WorldNetDaily.com



    “And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.” (Exodus 14:21)

    One of the most famous stories of the Bible is God’s parting of the Red Sea to save the Israelites from the Egyptian army and the subsequent drowning of soldiers and horses in hot pursuit.

    But is there evidence that such an event did in fact happen – and if so, precisely where did it take place?

    The issue is surfacing some 3,500 years after the event is said to have taken place with reports of Egyptian chariot wheels found in the Red Sea, photographs to do ent it and new books by scientists that could lead to a whole remapping of the Exodus route and a fresh look at ancient biblical accounts.

    Wheel of fortune


    Is this a chariot wheel that chased Moses?
    “I am 99.9 percent sure I picked up a chariot wheel,” Peter Elmer tells WorldNetDaily after two diving trips to the Gulf of Aqaba branch of the sea. “It was covered in coral.”

    The 38-year-old forklift mechanic from Keynsham, England, traveled to the region with his brother, Mark, after being inspired by videos of explorers Ron Wyatt and Jonathan Gray, who have do ented artifacts that in at least one case authorities have confirmed to be a chariot wheel dating to the time of the Exodus.

    “I believe I actually sat in an ancient chariot cab,” Elmer said, referring to his time exploring a submerged item in what he describes as an underwater scrapyard. “Without question, it is most definitely the remains of the Egyptian army.”

    But despite all of Elmer’s excitement, others who have been to the same location are not so sure what is being viewed underwater are the remnants of the great chase and urge extreme caution regarding the unsubstantiated claims.

    “All kinds of people are finding coral and calling it chariot parts,” says Richard Rives, president of Wyatt Archaeological Research in Tennessee. “It’s most likely coral covered with coral. … Opportunists are combining false things with the true things that are found. These people are making it up as they go to be TV stars.”

    Rives was a longtime partner of Ron Wyatt, an anesthetist and amateur archaeologist who died of cancer in 1999. Before passing away, Wyatt devoted years searching for and do enting physical evidence for events mentioned in the Bible. In addition to chariot wheels, Wyatt claimed to have found Noah’s Ark on the mountain next to Ararat in Turkey, the “true” Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia and the Ark of the Covenant with the Ten Commandments near the site of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion.


    Submerged ‘land bridge’ (wyattmuseum.com)
    Among those who accompanied Wyatt on many of his excursions is his wife, Mary Nell. She’s concerned about over-exuberance regarding new claims, but the Spring Hill, Tenn., woman tells WorldNetDaily she’s “convinced” there are chariot parts located on a subsurface “land bridge” connecting Egypt to Saudi Arabia through the Gulf of Aqaba.

    She cites Ron’s discovery of a wheel hub that he brought to the surface in the late 1970s as proof.

    The hub had the remains of eight spokes radiating outward and was examined by Nassif Mohammed Hassan, director of Antiquities in Cairo. Hassan declared it to be from the 18th Dynasty of ancient Egypt, explaining the eight-spoked wheel was used only during that dynasty around 1400 B.C.

    Curiously, no one can account for the precise whereabouts of that eight-spoked wheel today, though Hassan is on videotape stating his conclusion regarding authenticity.

    When Mary Nell went diving with Ron, she says it was very easy to assume (wrongly) that every item on the flat bottom had historical significance.

    “[At first] I thought everything was a chariot wheel!” Mrs. Wyatt exclaimed, noting how difficult it is for the untrained eye to distinguish an artifact from a piece of coral. “I’m just trying to be cautious about over-identifying too much. … It is God’s truth, and we can’t hype it up. We can’t add to it.”

    However, she notes a big problem for explorers and scientists is that the Egyptian government no longer allows items to be removed from the protected region. Thus, someone claiming to find an artifact will have a hard – if not impossible – time verifying its authenticity, a classic catch-22.

    The watery grave

    “And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.” (Exodus 14:28)

    The Bible account makes it clear that once the Israelites had marched through the parted sea on dry ground, that the waters rushed back to completely engulf the doomed army of ancient Egypt.

    With that in mind, many of the items being seen in the Gulf of Aqaba have been photographed by divers for comparison to the Exodus story.

    Many other photographs show formations in a circular pattern with projections that could be spokes, but those items remain at the bottom and have not been authenticated.

    Another issue is the route of the Exodus, and which body of water the Israelites crossed. Many travel maps and Bibles indicate a crossing point in the Gulf of Suez, the western branch of the Red Sea. But those may have to be updated if the Aqaba location is confirmed as the true location for the miraculous event.

    “The truth is, no one really knows where the crossing of the Red Sea took place,” says Carl Rasmussen, a biblical geographer and professor of Old Testament at Bethel College in St. Paul, Minn.

    Rasmussen compiled the “Zondervan NIV Atlas of the Bible” and personally thinks the crossing took place somewhere along what is now the Suez Canal.


    Yellow highlights possible spot of Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia. Gulf of Aqaba branch of Red Sea is at center, with main Red Sea at bottom-right of photo (wyattmuseum.com)

    Some scientists from Europe say the current maps are wrong, and the Wyatts are right – that the crossing began at the Nuweiba beachhead, went through the Gulf of Aqaba, and then into what is now Saudi Arabia where they claim the “true” Mount Sinai is located.

    For years, scholars have speculated as to the location of the actual Mount Sinai where Moses received the Ten Commandments from God. At least 13 sites have actually been claimed on the Sinai peninsula as being the correct spot.

    But Ron Wyatt believed it was in Arabia, even referenced as “mount Sinai in Arabia” by the Apostle Paul in Galatians 4:25.

    So he and his sons made their way to “Jebel a Lawz,” the mountain of the Law, which is known by the locals as “Jebel Musa” – Moses’ mountain.

    Unfortunately for the Wyatts, they were arrested and held in prison. His wife says someone had phoned embassy authorities for the Muslim country, claiming that Ron was spying for Israel. They were released after spending 78 days behind bars.

    Rasmussen doesn’t agree with the Arabian Mount Sinai theory.

    “I believe the strongest candidate is Jebel Sin Bisher,” he told WorldNetDaily. “The sites in Saudi Arabia have very, very weak scriptural backing, in spite of the hype.”

    Now, a new book by Cambridge University physicist Colin Humphreys led “The Miracles of Exodus” supports not only the claim for an Aqaba crossing, but also the location of Mount Sinai in Arabia.

    “If my book is correct, and I believe the evidence is very strong,” says Humphreys, “then world maps will need to be redrawn to relocate Mount Sinai. History books, travel guides and biblical commentaries will need to be rewritten.”

    Throughout his work, Humphreys provides scientific explanations to corroborate the accounts of the Old Testament.

    “‘The waters piled up, the surging waters stood firm like a wall,’ is a remarkable description of what the mathematics reveals to be the case for water pushed back by a very strong wind,” he writes.

    “What I have found is that the events of the Exodus are even more dramatic than is generally believed,” Humphreys said. “The Exodus of the ancient Israelites from Egypt really is one of the greatest true stories ever told.”

    A Swedish scientist who believes the Red Sea was split says while Humphreys is correct about the Aqaba crossing, there are no natural, scientific explanations for the parting miracle described in Scripture.


    Walls of water as depicted in ‘The Ten Commandments’ (Paramount Pictures)
    “The wind did not separate the water,” says Lennart Moller of the Karolinska Ins ute in Stockholm. “No person could be in that wind and survive. … If God has created all the Earth, it’s no problem for Him to separate the water for a while.”

    Speaking to WorldNetDaily from the isle of Gotland in the Baltic Sea, Moller, the author of “The Exodus Case,” says the key in finding the correct route of the Israelites is to understand that the Hebrew reference to “yum suph” does not mean “sea of reeds” as many scholars have claimed.

    Moller says it refers specifically to the Gulf of Aqaba, and while he’s not formally affiliated with the Wyatts, he agrees with them that a host of other evidence can be found on the Arabian side of the water, including remains of the golden calf, pillars, altars and the even the rock the Bible says Moses split to bring forth water for the Israelites.

    Regarding the items found beneath the waters, Moller believes there are remnants not only of chariots and wheels, but also human and animal skeletons.

    “There was a disaster [there] a long time ago,” he said. “Whatever that is, it’s open to interpretation.”

    He also notes that the downward and upward slope of the Aqaba crossing path actually falls within current U.S. standards for handicapped ramps.

    And while Mary Nell Wyatt warns overstating the claims by divers and authors could do more harm than good, she does believe there’s a reason why her husband was led to discover what Ron called “God’s attention-getters.”

    “God preserved all these evidences,” she said, “[otherwise] there would have been nothing left. … God has been lost today. Even Christians still can’t believe this all happened. … We need to pray for the Lord to help us get people to see it.”

    Back in England, Peter Elmer says people have mockingly asked “Why should a forklift mechanic from Keynsham be able to go to the same place Moses was?”

    He takes the criticism in stride, pointing out “Jesus used fishermen, tax collectors and publicans. Why not a forklift mechanic?”

  25. #475
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    There is no middle ground. The Bible is either true or it is not.
    I believe it is true- thus no need for any other point of view.
    "Let there be Light" is about the most literal religious idea of the Big Bang as you could find, I presume.

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