Atheism on the rise in every single US state.

[ALVAREZ6]

When it comes to new science that hasn't been around for a while and hasn't broken ground I'm a skeptic, just how science wants you to be. I want data, proofs, studies, theories, anything that can or might be able to prove it wrong and see what people in the area that are important have to say about it.

There's tons of these things...



And you're correct, science is new. Religions date way back and have been passed down and enforced and obeyed simply because they were the only source of explanation humans had. But as time passes, I'd say our society improves and moves forward in all directions. We realize past traditions were ed up (slavery, lynching black people, killing gays, genocides against different religious groups, etc.) and we adjust our behaviors. We understand a whole lot more with every century in time. Separation of state and church is a very new concept in human history, and as more time passes, there will be less and less need for religion. People are realizing this, and this is why atheism and agnosticism is increasing. Religion will still be useful for many people, I don't believe it will ever die, I understand some people need have faith and want to be comforted by religion throughout their lives.

[LnGrrrR]

Ever watch the "Butterfly Effect"???

In my opinion GOD has the capability of knowing the outcome of every possible decision we choose to make throughout our lifetimes, but ultimately, because we're endowed with free will, those choices are still ours to make. Cause and effect... Cause and effect...

That premise is contingent on the fact that an infinite array of 'outcomes' exists for each of our choices... and because GOD is omniscient, He knows the result of every possible path... (kind of like Adam Sandler's "Click").

So yes, GOD gave us free will... but free will wouldn't amount to much of anything if we weren't accountable for our own decisions... So if He didn't create us as drones it's because He wanted for us to come to know Him out of our own volition and not because we were divinely coerced.

Does he know which choice we will ultimately make before we make it? (I'm just having fun here. )

[ALVAREZ6]

You feel pain.

Read the Bible it's in there.

lmao, I'd much rather not

[Blake]

I do think about my belief system, question it, find answers, and analyze it, but what I was referring to was all the bs questions like:

Why would I want to go heaven and why does god want me there?
Is it free?
Why does this happen and why doesn't this happen? what is god thinking?
is he gonna torture everyone else besides so and so?

I don't think of scenarios where I try to examine what's going in God's head and attempt to explain everything that has happend on earth and what made god want to do it; I don't try to explain something infinite with finite mind. I think and try to learn more about the belief system and why I follow the guidelines and what the underlying message is.

who are you in your finite mind to say what a BS question is and isn't?

there are some philosophical hypotheticals that arise from certain tenets of the Christian faith.

If you don't want to answer them, great, but I can show the Christian faith itself to be more BS than than the questions I and others are asking.

[Blake]

Does he know which choice we will ultimately make before we make it? (I'm just having fun here. )

according to those here, yes he does...

which means he ulimately knows he will send you to even before he creates you.....

...and he created you because he loves you.

[tlongII]

There's tons of these things...



And you're correct, science is new. Religions date way back and have been passed down and enforced and obeyed simply because they were the only source of explanation humans had. But as time passes, I'd say our society improves and moves forward in all directions. We realize past traditions were ed up (slavery, lynching black people, killing gays, genocides against different religious groups, etc.) and we adjust our behaviors. We understand a whole lot more with every century in time. Separation of state and church is a very new concept in human history, and as more time passes, there will be less and less need for religion. People are realizing this, and this is why atheism and agnosticism is increasing. Religion will still be useful for many people, I don't believe it will ever die, I understand some people need have faith and want to be comforted by religion throughout their lives.

Actually this is false. The ancient Greeks were terrific scientists. One of the things that pisses me off about Christianity is the fact that we lost so much scientific knowledge developed by ancient Greece because of it.

[Phenomanul]

Does he know which choice we will ultimately make before we make it? (I'm just having fun here. )

Most Christians don't really explore the gift of free-will to its fullness... and many fail to understand the responsibilty that comes along with the gift.... My response to your question then may come as a surprise to you... given that I've often contemplated over these very questions myself...

No. The choices are ours alone... Part of giving us free-will meant that GOD would have to constrain Himself from controlling us.

His decision to do so, however, does not diminish His omnipotence because He is fully capable of doing so [controlling us]... He has relinquished that power to allow us to make our own choices... The risk GOD took by gifting free-will to mankind however was worth the reward, even despite the emergence of evil... No one, not even GOD desires to be loved through coercion...

GOD commands supreme sovereignty over everything and has the power to orchestrate events around our lives... Nevertheless, He has chosen to let us carve out our own paths... Why do you think we have to ask Him for guidance and wisdom??? Because we don't want to suffer the consequences of acting out against His perfect will. Sometimes we 'rob' ourselves of the blessings that GOD would have graciously bestowed upon us simply because we have chosen to walk away from the path that He wanted for our lives... many times continually...

Think of it like a "Navigation System": anytime one deviate's from the planned route it tries to recalculate an alternate route... the new path may be longer... may place us in peril... or simply be undesirable... but ultimately we place ourselves in that predicament...

[Phenomanul]

..

[ALVAREZ6]

Actually this is false. The ancient Greeks were terrific scientists. One of the things that pisses me off about Christianity is the fact that we lost so much scientific knowledge developed by ancient Greece because of it.

OK, I meant MODERN science. (Newton, calculus, physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy, etc.)

[MiamiHeat]

astronomy is ancient. really, really, really old.

watching the stars and the sun and the moon is where humans made up the idea of god.

celestial battles, traveling through the sky, etc.

[MiamiHeat]

Actually this is false. The ancient Greeks were terrific scientists. One of the things that pisses me off about Christianity is the fact that we lost so much scientific knowledge developed by ancient Greece because of it.

that's why we call some period "the dark ages" .... science was suppressed, in fact, anyone who didn't confess to believe in christianity was suppressed/killed.

humanity was left in darkness, stunting progress

[ALVAREZ6]

astronomy is ancient. really, really, really old.

watching the stars and the sun and the moon is where humans made up the idea of god.

celestial battles, traveling through the sky, etc.

True, aristotle was a pioneer in this thought. I know it started a long time ago, but what those guys knew was very limited compared to now. They simply didn't have the technology.

[Phenomanul]

Actually this is false. The ancient Greeks were terrific scientists. One of the things that pisses me off about Christianity is the fact that we lost so much scientific knowledge developed by ancient Greece because of it.

Like I said, stating a lie repeatedly won't make it any more accurate...

Several centuries spanned the gap between the height of the Greek Empire and the dawn of the Vatican-led Roman Empire... Your suggestion then that Christianity is to blame for the demise of Greek Science is preposterous...

An earlier suggestion that Christians burned the library at Alexandria is also preposterous...

[LnGrrrR]

He did... He created life... leaving a pretty amazing fingerprint.

Even then naysayers still find ways to discredit His handiwork, choosing instead to believe in abiogenensis (the belief that 'life' was produced from non-living molecules)....

To be fair, it would have been much easier if he strung out a line of stars that said "God was here"

That conviction is born from the 'sense' that we need Him, something other than ourselves. Some people are simply too self-sufficient, too independent and believe they don't need GOD. One can't find something if they aren't searching for it...

He was the one that saw my creation, correct? Didn't he see before my birth that I would be too independent? How can he be mad at me for something he's seen before my birth?

Not circular at all... Your prayers will reach heaven only if they are genuine...
If you truly desire to find Him, you will. Otherwise, why waste your breath in mocking His desire to come to know us.

I always find it interesting that the blame is put squarely on the doubter's shoulder.

[LnGrrrR]

ridiculous. You act like there simply can't be a reasonable explanation, despite the fact I gave you one. I NEVER implied, nor stated, i was for stoning children - and the verse is obviously not talking about a child per se, nor gluttons and drunkards. It's not actually speaking about a specific situation even.

Ancient Israel was a THEOCRACY, people. They were led not by a king, but by GOD (there were judges, and even kings at one point, but God was always acknowledged as "head of state"). When GOD orders something, people take it VERY SERIOUSLY. GOD (i capitalize it for clarity - this is the almighty King of Kings we're talking here) comes down himself, gives your nation ten commandments which must NEVER be broken, and commands his followers to obey them. What is so hard to understand about the parents eventually becoming angry and frightened at such a sinful child (and I say child as in their child, not a little kid or even teenager - their were little or no children in ancient Israel which were gluttons, and even more chances they were not drunkards) who has continually dishonored them against God's (the King of the entire Nation) wishes and their own, despite living in their home. Again, its up to the parents to take their child to the gates and ask the men to stone him.

So you are FOR PARENTS BRINGING THEIR CHILDREN TO THE PROPER AUTHORITIES TO BE STONED.

[LnGrrrR]

LOL...ironically, this story has an example of a father who makes every effort to save his son. He corrects him, he punishes him, and after he has extended enough opportunity for the son to correct his behavior (which the son chooses not to do), he must finally turn his child over to face the established consequences of his choices.

So do you think it's moral/acceptable to allow your child to be stoned to death?

[LnGrrrR]

Most Christians don't really explore the gift of free-will to its fullness... and many fail to understand the responsibilty that comes along with the gift.... My response to your question then may come as a surprise to you... given that I've often contemplated over these very questions myself...

No. The choices are ours alone... Part of giving us free-will meant that GOD would have to constrain Himself from controlling us.

His decision to do so, however, does not diminish His omnipotence because He is fully capable of doing so [controlling us]... He has relinquished that power to allow us to make our own choices... The risk GOD took by gifting free-will to mankind however was worth the reward, even despite the emergence of evil... No one, not even GOD desires to be loved through coercion...

GOD commands supreme sovereignty over everything and has the power to orchestrate events around our lives... Nevertheless, He has chosen to let us carve out our own paths... Why do you think we have to ask Him for guidance and wisdom??? Because we don't want to suffer the consequences of acting out against His perfect will. Sometimes we 'rob' ourselves of the blessings that GOD would have graciously bestowed upon us simply because we have chosen to walk away from the path that He wanted for our lives... many times continually...

Think of it like a "Navigation System": anytime one deviate's from the planned route it tries to recalculate an alternate route... the new path may be longer... may place us in peril... or simply be undesirable... but ultimately we place ourselves in that predicament...

So he COULD be omnipotent, but chooses not to be? Just like I COULD be a rocket scientist, but chose not to be.

Here's my big question now: Why create us with free will, and then hinge our ETERNAL existence on a TEMPORARY life based on ONE decision? And not only that, but not a decision based in hard fact, but one based on a need to BELIEVE in something without full knowledge?

[LnGrrrR]

just believe.

What if I gave you a scenario, in which I told you you must believe in a different God, let's call him... Jambo.

And if you DIDN'T believe in Jambo, then you would be tormented for all eternity.

As evidence of Jambo's existence, I gave you the same evidence that you had for God, as well as a 10 page pamphlet.

Would you see a great need to believe in this Jambo? Put yourself in the shoes of a non-believer for a moment. Would you, COULD you believe?

[Blake]

Like I said, stating a lie repeatedly won't make it any more accurate...

you mean like christianity?

j/k

[Phenomanul]

So he COULD be omnipotent, but chooses not to be? Just like I COULD be a rocket scientist, but chose not to be.

Read my post again (I added some other statements to it while you were responding to it)...

HE has always been ominipotent and forever will be...

By electing to not do something that you are capable of doing, are you still not excising that option??? GOD does so willingly... don't think for a split second however that He doesn't have the power to 'smite' us... under the covenant He made with humanity through Jesus, He has chosen to delay the passing out His judgement.

On a side note... can you choose to be something that you are incapable of becoming??? You can only elect those things which are within your capabilities. Hypothetically if you were capable of becoming a rocket scientist and chose to become a neuro-surgeon instead... that was free will. If however you were a slacker at school... and expected to become one... that's delusion.

Here's my big question now: Why create us with free will, and then hinge our ETERNAL existence on a TEMPORARY life based on ONE decision? And not only that, but not a decision based in hard fact, but one based on a need to BELIEVE in something without full knowledge?

Risk and reward....

[Blake]

No. The choices are ours alone...Part of giving us free-will meant that GOD would have to constrain Himself from controlling us.

ILMSM says that we will have free will in heaven but won't be capable of sinning...

if we have the same free will in heaven as we do now (where we aren't robots), then why create earth to begin with?

that makes no sense.

[Blake]

....don't think for a split second however that He doesn't have the power to 'smite' us... under the covenant He made with humanity through Jesus, He has chosen to delay the passing out His judgement.

why does he have to "smite" us? torturing us for eternity?
why not just a simple separation? or why not reincarnate us back to earth until we get it right?

forgiveness is the entire Christian theme, yet in the end, there is no more forgiveness after you die. That's a contradiction no matter how you look at it.

[Blake]

Risk and reward....

I didn't realize the word risk was in the Bible.

I thought it was something preachers use to get more people in the seats on Sunday.

[tlongII]

Like I said, stating a lie repeatedly won't make it any more accurate...

Several centuries spanned the gap between the height of the Greek Empire and the dawn of the Vatican-led Roman Empire... Your suggestion then that Christianity is to blame for the demise of Greek Science is preposterous...

An earlier suggestion that Christians burned the library at Alexandria is also preposterous...

Preposterous my ass. It's a do ented fact.

[Phenomanul]

ILMSM says that we will have free will in heaven but won't be capable of sinning...

if we have the same free will in heaven as we do now (where we aren't robots), then why create earth to begin with?

that makes no sense.

GOD initially made earth to be a paradise for man... until Adam disobeyed and tarnished the plan.

At that moment GOD set a plan in motion to rescue mankind... something (interestingly enough) which he didn't do for the angels when they rebelled against Him...