Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 85
  1. #1
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    42,561
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/op...9friedman.html


    Weighing everything, President Obama got it about as right as one could when he decided to ban the use of torture, to release the Bush torture memos for public scrutiny and to not prosecute the lawyers and interrogators who implemented the policy. But there is nothing for us to be happy about in any of this.

    After all, we’re not just talking about “enhanced interrogations.” Lawrence Wilkerson, the former chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, has testified to Congress that more than 100 detainees died in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, with up to 27 of those declared homicides by the military. They were allegedly kicked to death, shot, suffocated or drowned. Look, our people killed detainees, and only a handful of those deaths have resulted in any punishment of U.S. officials.

    The president’s decision to expose but not prosecute those responsible for this policy is surely unsatisfying; some of this abuse involved sheer brutality that had nothing to do with clear and present dangers. Then why justify the Obama compromise? Two reasons: the first is that because justice taken to its logical end here would likely require bringing George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld and other senior officials to trial, which would rip our country apart; and the other is that Al Qaeda truly was a unique enemy, and the post-9/11 era a deeply confounding war in a variety of ways.

    First, Al Qaeda was undeterred by normal means. Al Qaeda’s weapon of choice was suicide. Al Qaeda operatives were ready to kill themselves — as they did on 9/11, and before that against U.S. targets in Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Tanzania and Yemen — long before we could ever threaten to kill them. We could deter the Russians because they loved their children more than they hated us; they did not want to die. The Al Qaeda operatives hated us more than they loved their own children. They glorified martyrdom and left families behind.

    Second, Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda aspired to deliver a devastating blow to America. They “were involved in an extraordinarily sophisticated and professional effort to acquire weapons of mass destruction. In this case, nuclear material,” Michael Scheuer, the former C.I.A. bin Laden expert, told “60 Minutes” in 2004. “By the end of 1996, it was clear that this was an organization unlike any other one we had ever seen.”

    Third, Al Qaeda comes out of a stream in radical Islam that believes that it has religious sanction for killing absolutely anyone, including fellow Muslims. Al Qaeda in Iraq has blown up Muslims in mosques, shrines and funerals. It respects no redlines or religious constraints. One of its leaders personally severed Daniel Pearl’s head with a butcher knife — on film.

    Finally, Al Qaeda’s tactics are designed to be used against, and to undermine, exactly what we are: an open society. By turning human beings into walking missiles and instruments from our daily lives — cars, airplanes, shoes, cellphones, backpacks — into bombs, Al Qaeda attacks the very feature that keeps our open society open: trust. If you have to fear that the person next to you on a plane or in a theater might blow up, there can be no open society.

    And therefore, the post-9/11 environment remains perilous. One more 9/11 would close our open society another notch. One more 9/11 and you’ll be taking off more than your shoes at the airport. We have the luxury of having this torture debate now because there was no second 9/11, and it was not for want of trying. Had there been, a vast majority of Americans would have told the government (and still will): “Do whatever it takes.”


    So President Obama’s compromise is the best we can forge right now: We have to enjoin those who confront Al Qaeda types every day on the frontlines to act in ways that respect who we are, but also to never forget who they are. They are not white-collar criminals. They do not care whether we torture or not — bin Laden declared war on us when Bill Clinton was president.

    I believe that the most important reason there has not been another 9/11, besides the improved security and intelligence, is that Al Qaeda is primarily focused on defeating America in the heart of the Arab-Muslim world — particularly in Iraq. Al Qaeda knows that if it can destroy the U.S. effort (still a long shot) to build a decent, modernizing society in Iraq, it will undermine every U.S. ally in the region.

    Conversely, if we, with Iraqis, defeat them by building any kind of decent, pluralistic society in the heart of their world, it will be a devastating blow. Odd as it may seem, the most dangerous moment for us is if Al Qaeda is beaten in Iraq. Because that is when Al Qaeda’s remnants will try to throw a Hail Mary pass — that is, try to set off a bomb in a U.S. city — to obscure its defeat by moderate Arabs and Muslims in the heart of its world.

    So, yes, people among us who went over the line may go unpunished, because we still have enemies who respect no lines at all. In such an ugly war, you do your best. That’s what President Obama did.

  2. #2
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    I don't think you need to bring them to trial in the context that it would cause a huge tear in the political landscape, and it would certainly divide the country more, when we should work together for unity.
    But it needs to be condemned. And steps need to be taken, by Congress and this Executive, to ensure this kind of will not happen ever again.

    And the "we're fighting an uncommon enemy" cop-out needs to end. Countries like Spain and Ireland have fought terrorism for decades, without needing to resort to Guantanamo or Military Tribunals.

  3. #3
    Spurs love forever RobinsontoDuncan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Post Count
    3,000
    How would Don Rumsfeld going to prison rip our country apart?

  4. #4
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    How would Don Rumsfeld going to prison rip our country apart?
    Because it would look like political shenanigans. Then we would need to deal with the whole 'political prisoner' bull . If it were up to me, Rummie and Gonzales need to be locked up for the benefit of humanity as a whole.
    But the political cost would be real high. And the Dems seem to be in control right now, so they won't gamble their lead away.

  5. #5
    Believe. FaithInOne's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Post Count
    754
    Just outsource the torture to Egypt like the old days.

  6. #6
    Veteran
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Post Count
    97,536
    "political shenanigans"

    only because the Repugs and conservative would try to cover the crimes of their dubya/ head regime by calling prosecutions partisan.

  7. #7
    Believe. FaithInOne's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Post Count
    754
    Boutons, are you as equally outraged that the dems are in league with lobbyists while drafting bills like DubDubDubya?

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-climate-bill/

  8. #8
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    114,062
    You seem to be unfamiliar with boutons. He's an equal opportunity hater.

  9. #9
    Believe.
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Post Count
    107


    This is what I imagine when I read boutons' posts.

  10. #10
    Spurs love forever RobinsontoDuncan's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Post Count
    3,000
    So Donald Rumsfeld, one of the least popular public officials in decades, a man who has almost no credibility with the public and is largely believed to have played a major role in misleading this country into war, would throw this country into chaos if prosecuted?

    I ain't buying that Bull ! None of the officials in question here have a lot of credibility with the American public, so this odd claim the right continues to invoke about partisan witch hunting, etc. seems a bit off to me.

    If these people contributed to crimes against humanity, then they need to be prosecuted. I don't care if GOP sympathizers would have their feeling hurt in the process. I would say the same thing to Democratic politicians and pundits that tried to block prosecution over fears of partisan "revenge" theater. This isn't a return to McCarthyism, it's an attempt to enforce the established laws of the US Federal Government.

  11. #11
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    114,062
    Rule of law is a quaint, pre-9/11 curio. The solemn oaths pols take to uphold it mean nothing.

    Candy Mountain, Charlie.

  12. #12
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    So Donald Rumsfeld, one of the least popular public officials in decades, a man who has almost no credibility with the public and is largely believed to have played a major role in misleading this country into war, would throw this country into chaos if prosecuted?

    I ain't buying that Bull ! None of the officials in question here have a lot of credibility with the American public, so this odd claim the right continues to invoke about partisan witch hunting, etc. seems a bit off to me.

    If these people contributed to crimes against humanity, then they need to be prosecuted. I don't care if GOP sympathizers would have their feeling hurt in the process. I would say the same thing to Democratic politicians and pundits that tried to block prosecution over fears of partisan "revenge" theater. This isn't a return to McCarthyism, it's an attempt to enforce the established laws of the US Federal Government.
    It would give the Republicans a 'persecuted' meme. Something they can translate into votes. People sympathize with the oppressed and persecuted.
    That how politics are played. It's a dirty world out there.

  13. #13
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    42,561
    So Donald Rumsfeld, one of the least popular public officials in decades, a man who has almost no credibility with the public and is largely believed to have played a major role in misleading this country into war, would throw this country into chaos if prosecuted?

    I ain't buying that Bull ! None of the officials in question here have a lot of credibility with the American public, so this odd claim the right continues to invoke about partisan witch hunting, etc. seems a bit off to me.

    If these people contributed to crimes against humanity, then they need to be prosecuted. I don't care if GOP sympathizers would have their feeling hurt in the process. I would say the same thing to Democratic politicians and pundits that tried to block prosecution over fears of partisan "revenge" theater. This isn't a return to McCarthyism, it's an attempt to enforce the established laws of the US Federal Government.


    You're serious, aren't you?

    By the way, the author of that op ed piece is not a conservative.

  14. #14
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
    My Team
    Boston Celtics
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Post Count
    22,399
    "Rip our country apart"? Nice hyperbole there. It didn't "rip our country apart" when Clinton went on trial, did it?

  15. #15
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
    My Team
    Boston Celtics
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Post Count
    22,399
    We have the luxury of having this torture debate now because there was no second 9/11, and it was not for want of trying. Had there been, a vast majority of Americans would have told the government (and still will): “Do whatever it takes.”
    Then a vast majority of Americans are idiots.

    We are a nation bound by laws, not mob rule.

  16. #16
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    42,561
    Then a vast majority of Americans are idiots.


    I don't disagree with you on that point.

  17. #17
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    114,062
    By the way, the author of that op ed piece is not a conservative.
    So what? His argument sucks regardless.

  18. #18
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    42,561
    So what? His argument sucks regardless.

    I just think he sees the gray areas in this and also sees the political fallout that would happen if this witch hunt is pursued. If the Obama admin does pursue this in some effort to appease the foaming-at-the-mouth Olbermann-esque left, I think it would be a big mistake.

  19. #19
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    114,062
    How about appeasing law and order cons utionalists like me?

  20. #20
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Post Count
    7,042
    How about appeasing law and order cons utionalists like me?
    , selective law and order cons utionalist more like it.

  21. #21
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    42,561
    How about appeasing law and order cons utionalists like me?

    Then, by all means, let's have Nuremberg-style trials for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al. I think it would be a great idea, don't you?

  22. #22
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    114,062
    Then, by all means, let's have Nuremberg-style trials for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al. I think it would be a great idea, don't you?
    Too soon to say. You follow the trail wherever it leads, even if it's inconvenient. Justice is a .

  23. #23
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    114,062
    selective law and order cons utionalist more like it.
    Prove it.

  24. #24
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Post Count
    153,473
    Then, by all means, let's have Nuremberg-style trials for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al. I think it would be a great idea, don't you?
    I wouldn't be opposed to that actually. I mean, if they're innocent and they didn't commit any crimes, they shouldn't worry about it, right?

  25. #25
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    114,062
    Iggy and Darrin can't conceive that there's a conservative critique of torture and arbitrary detention. It's because they're ignorant of history generally, and conservatism more specifically. Oh, and judeo-christian values too.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •