Atheism on the rise in every single US state.

[LnGrrrR]

it isn't, or doesn't, whatever you want to say. why do you ask?

So you're cool with me believing some other religion, as long as it has one god in it?

[z0sa]

So you're cool with me believing some other religion, as long as it has one god in it?

I never wanted you to do anything but believe (or not) in what you want.

[LnGrrrR]

Zosa,

My point is, in America today, we do not stone people. EVEN IF they're drunk, a glutton, and they live at home, and they're jerks to their parents. Heck, we don't do that even if they shoot or rob someone.

Are you saying that God only said he was ok with stoning because that was the punishment of the time?

Why didn't God say, "Hey, don't stone people!"

You can't have it both ways. Either the Bible is literal, and God is saying it's OK to stone people to death for breaking his laws, or the Bible ISN'T literal, and it's some sort of analogy/parable.

There's many other views that God does not denounce in the Bible as well, such as slavery.

[LnGrrrR]

I never wanted you to do anything but believe (or not) in what you want.

My point is, how am I, or anyone, supposed to know which is the 'right' book to follow? We go off of how we were raised, or instinct, or feeling. But religious belief is always grounded in UNPROVABLE faith.

If one does not have this unprovable faith, then how does one go about obtaining it?

[I Love Me Some Me]

Ok, let's not throw gobbledygook into this.

If you are a Bible literalist, it obviously supports stoning children, and so obviously God supports stoning children, or did at one time.

Are you saying that his decree that children should be stoned is no longer valid until Jesus/NT came about?

If so, are there possibly OTHER OT laws/punishments that are no longer valid?

What makes it gobbleygook? If you want me to explain it in simpler terms, I can try.

You need to seperate the law from the punishment. The law (against drunkenness and rebellion) still stands, but the punishment (stoning) no longer exists.

[z0sa]

Zosa,

My point is, in America today, we do not stone people. EVEN IF they're drunk, a glutton, and they live at home, and they're jerks to their parents. Heck, we don't do that even if they shoot or rob someone.

That's America, a human country with human laws in a humanistic, immoral, modern and godless society.

Then, God was the "president", AND the Lawmaker. His will be done.

Are you saying that God only said he was ok with stoning because that was the punishment of the time?

No - though you still executions in today's world all the time.

Why didn't God say, "Hey, don't stone people!"

I could write a 2000 word essay with that reworded as the thesis. The truth is, God's law is God's law - it was extremely important to the Israelites that they not break it. Again, God set the standard, but people must adhere to it. The parents were the only ones who could bring their "child" (i really want to the know the actual hebrew now, to see if it implies son/daughter and not young kid as I presume) to the gates and ask the elder to gather up men for the execution.

You can't have it both ways. Either the Bible is literal, and God is saying it's OK to stone people to death for breaking his laws, or the Bible ISN'T literal, and it's some sort of analogy/parable.

Fine, you want the "admittance" though I would believe you already had it initially. YES, God commands the death penalty for those who break his commandments continually. But again, IT IS UP TO THE PARENTS in this case as to whether or not their child is truly worthy of execution. How many parents pulled the execution card, do you think?



to reiterate, stoning in ancient israel usually involved someone who knew they ed up and would not resist, getting their head crushed in rather quickly and decisively. Not throwing pebbles and breaking bone after bone to cause misery and suffering.

There's many other views that God does not denounce in the Bible as well, such as slavery.

There are Laws in the Bible protecting Israeli slaves + requiring their owners to care, feed, and house them - and even laws freeing them from slavery should they ever be wronged. Basically, your minimum wage workers of today, only called "slaves." , they would have their own housing to stay in (required), sufficient food and drink (required), and were treated as equal humans (not equals, but equal humans, required) by their owners, with no cost to the slave.

[z0sa]

My point is, how am I, or anyone, supposed to know which is the 'right' book to follow? We go off of how we were raised, or instinct, or feeling. But religious belief is always grounded in UNPROVABLE faith.

If one does not have this unprovable faith, then how does one go about obtaining it?

i can't answer this question, yet I know Someone who can. It's up to you to find that Someone.

You might say " that, its all bs." What assurance I can give you is this: I, too, was an atheist - and nothing could have changed that, except God.

[Phenomanul]

Phenomanul is just trolling.

Nobody could seriously believe the Christian Church didn't supress science and actually 'heralded' it's progress

It's so ridiculous of a claim that it's not even worth acknowledging. It's like claiming that Germany won World War 2. It's a complete revision of history, a shameless one.

MiamiHeat is just trolling.

Anyone with a history book can see for themselves that Christian ideals inspired the great minds of the Enlightenment to accomplish what no other culture or tradition could. The Scientific movement took a significant leap when people in the caliber of Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler, Boyle, Pasteur, Maxwell and Planck took the reigns of their respective fields well beyond the understanding of their time... They sought to decipher GOD's mysteries, and GOD revealed His language to them...

A counterclaim is so ridiculous a notion that it's not even worth acknowledging. It's like claiming that Germany won World War II. It's a complete revision of history, a shameless one.

[j-6]

For what it's worth, I wonder if true atheism is up, or if more and more people are just becoming apathetic toward religion in general. Personally I just don't care one way or another - I'd rather be a good husband and neighbor then spend my time worrying about if I'm damned or not.

[Blake]

you're very much wrong, they don't write their own versions based off the KJV, they have their own translators of ancient scripture for every version.

when I said "original text" that's what I meant.

The context isn't "changed" onceosever. Like I said, only some things are rephrased differently - which, although not "changing the context," changes the message I think we were intended to perceive (this does sometimes have to do with ty or purposely misleading translations). When I read the bible, I always read the KJV.

so it was the devil's idea to have different translations or did God allow each person to have his/her own tastes in Scripture?

[Phenomanul]

got that.

so how did Lucifer sin in Heaven?

Hey... there's a first time for everything... GOD will crush sin for good. After that... it will no longer exist...

so God erases our memory?

Not necessarily, hopefully He would simply erase any memory of you.

Seriously though... we would be incapable of acting on a sinful nature that was no longer there... If you felt compeled to sin, that would likely mean you hadn't 'buried' and relinquished that nature to begin with... You probably would not be there...

I don't need a infinitely sized book about what heaven will be like. A chapter in one of the books of the Bible with something other than "we get to be with Jesus" would suffice.

But if you understood who Jesus really was then that alone should suffice.

if Heaven is the same in the future as it was at the beginning of time, then the same jealousy that got Lucifer thrown out will still exist.

That's where your assumption is off base... Heaven after sin has been ''eternally'' defeated, will not be the same Heaven that existed before Lucifer's rebellion.

We will obviously not have the power that God has. We apparently will not even have the same kind of access to things that angels have. Therefore, it stands to reason that envy should still be a possibility.

My number one 'concern' is eternal boredom.

We will be given a place above the angels in Heaven... not beneath them.

[Blake]

You don't understand why this is going to happen - why the Jewish people are accountable for not believing in the messiah God promised them throughout the OT?

I understand it clearly.

B.C. Jews go to Heaven
A.D. Jews go to .

It's one of the many problems I have with Christianity.

Sideburns? It's a unattractive, but no, this is not a sin. Guy's jeans? Like her husband's? Why wouldn't she wear her own clothes?

you think cross dressing is not a sin?

you really don't talk to many religious people, do you......

I bet Angel-Luv thinks it's a sin.

you just don't know what you're talking about.

There are different versions of the Bible. I thought that was common knowledge.

Is the burden of proof on me to show you that too?

Yes, why bring up beliefs of a sect of christianity you know nothing about?

the burder of proof is on you, first of all, if you feel like actually making a point.

second, divorce is considered a sin, but people cannot live with eachother. God forgives, friend.

I said something along the lines of "southern baptists I know think it's a sin."

Since you agree with that, then what is your point? You want me to prove that I know some southern baptists?

regardless, here's a link:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/Divorce-8.htm

The point is that divorce is a sin to southern baptists and to you, even though the OT clearly states that a man needs very little reason to divorce his wife.

God's forgiveness reaches it's limit when you die, friend.

Is the USA's head of state God?

Are there city walls or gates, or an elder to call the men together for this stoning? Where are the huge rocks they stoned with? It was not just tossing pebbles at eachother, they crushed your head in with a stone to make it quick.

I have no idea what your point is with these sidestepping questions.

[ALVAREZ6]

they both feed you bull , whether you want to accept it or not.

and it seems people agree, you truly are a moron if you're calling science bull .


you are pathetic. I'm glad I wasn't born a brainwashed, re ed clown.

[Blake]

Does the president of the USA support putting criminals behind bars? Yes, it is the law of the country.

God's Law says if you break the ten commandments, it can be punishable by death (and God rules Israel). Don't. Break. The. Ten. Commandments. God meant it when he made them.

does the president of the USA support stoning people to death for being a drunk?

you are reaching moron levels very quickly.

[Blake]

This really tells the informed, how little your knowledge is on the current subject.

Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed by God because of sexuality (and many other immoral practices, but sexuality is highlighted including a story concerning Lot). The KJV translators didn't have the word sexual, because they were not tolerated like in today's world - they were simply a part of the sexually immoral. Even a little research will field this knowledge, and by you claiming the Biblical scholars have translated the ancient texts wrong, you make quite a fallacious statement.

The NIV is written using today's language and grammar, so we can read it without knowing the lingo of the 15th/16th centuries. It is still a direct translation from the ancient texts, which undoubtedly implied sexuality with their wordings. Its not hard to do a little research, then again, SpursTalk is your hub for all knowledge so ...

honestly, you have no idea what you are talking about.

you are an ignorant moron.

[ALVAREZ6]

For what it's worth, I wonder if true atheism is up, or if more and more people are just becoming apathetic toward religion in general. Personally I just don't care one way or another - I'd rather be a good husband and neighbor then spend my time worrying about if I'm damned or not.

Which is how it should be, people should just focus on being a good member of the community. But whether true atheism is up or not, goes both ways. There's probably a significant percentage of people who would be agnostic or atheist if they were presented with all the arguments from both sides and were forced to reevaluate their true beliefs. I have several friends that are extremely casual Christians, meaning they rarely go to church, rarely to never pray, and don't really think about the situation and cease to truly care about religion, yet when polled or asked, they declare themselves as Christians. This was my previous phase a few years ago until I wasn't in middle school anymore and I realized how re ed is. So I think there's tons of people in this country that declare themselves a certain religion, perhaps for tradition or because they don't give a , but aren't true followers.

[LnGrrrR]

What makes it gobbleygook? If you want me to explain it in simpler terms, I can try.

You need to seperate the law from the punishment. The law (against drunkenness and rebellion) still stands, but the punishment (stoning) no longer exists.

Great. That's what I meant by gobbledygook

So, you're saying some OT punishments no longer apply, though the laws are valid, correct?

Does the same hold true for NT punishments as well?

[JoeChalupa]

Some simply don't understand faith. Done.

[LnGrrrR]

That's America, a human country with human laws in a humanistic, immoral, modern and godless society.

Then, God was the "president", AND the Lawmaker. His will be done.

No - though you still executions in today's world all the time.

There's a difference between executing someone humanely and stoning them to death. I'm sure you can see that.

Fine, you want the "admittance" though I would believe you already had it initially. YES, God commands the death penalty for those who break his commandments continually. But again, IT IS UP TO THE PARENTS in this case as to whether or not their child is truly worthy of execution. How many parents pulled the execution card, do you think?

Aren't the parents disobeying God's will then?

to reiterate, stoning in ancient israel usually involved someone who knew they ed up and would not resist, getting their head crushed in rather quickly and decisively. Not throwing pebbles and breaking bone after bone to cause misery and suffering.

It specifically said "to death" did it not?

There are Laws in the Bible protecting Israeli slaves + requiring their owners to care, feed, and house them - and even laws freeing them from slavery should they ever be wronged. Basically, your minimum wage workers of today, only called "slaves." , they would have their own housing to stay in (required), sufficient food and drink (required), and were treated as equal humans (not equals, but equal humans, required) by their owners, with no cost to the slave.

Agreed that the laws were at least progressive for slaves. However, it did not mean they WEREN'T slaves. They were still slaves, just that they were well-treated.

My point? Why doesn't God seem to be as 'moral' as today's society? If God is ok with slavery, making it moral, why don't we consider it moral, as long as the slave is well-kept?

When it comes down to it, God accepts both slavery and stoning people to death, two things that most societies nowadays would consider immoral. Why do we consider it immoral if God does not?

[LnGrrrR]

i can't answer this question, yet I know Someone who can. It's up to you to find that Someone.

You might say " that, its all bs." What assurance I can give you is this: I, too, was an atheist - and nothing could have changed that, except God.

And that's exactly what I've been saying. NOTHING COULD HAVE CHANGED THAT, EXCEPT GOD.

Yet, you stated earlier that it was MY CHOICE.

Which of the two is correct?

Edit: Additionally, please don't say "God answers everyone who seeks for him" because A) that's not always the case and B) it's offensive to some who have tried and not heard any answer. Not throwing myself in that category, but I've talked with people who have lost faith and some of them are still hurt by it.

[ALVAREZ6]

Some simply don't understand faith. Done.

No, I definitely do, as I've said numerous times before: The only problem I have with it is calling uncertainties....certainties. If people want to believe in god and heaven and with strong conviction, I think they should at least keep it humble and realize they could be wrong. What's the point in faith if you guys are just gonna call your beliefs the "truth" ??? That's like me believing I am a human being when I already know for fact that I am one...

[JoeChalupa]

What I don't get is why non-believers think those of us who do have faith are "brain washed" or "believe in story tales" or act like we are somehow stupid simply because we choose to believe. I never push my religion on others and I can't stand it when non-believers push their scientific facts on me. If you don't believe fine.

[JoeChalupa]

No, I definitely do, as I've said numerous times before: The only problem I have with it is calling uncertainties....certainties. If people want to believe in god and heaven and with strong conviction, I think they should at least keep it humble and realize they could be wrong. What's the point in faith if you guys are just gonna call your beliefs the "truth" ??? That's like me believing I am a human being when I already know for fact that I am one...

I agree. Just the same as non-believers stating that God doesn't exist as fact or a certainty. It simply cannot be proved either way and that is why it is called faith. Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe.
Oh well, these threads are all pretty much the same. Carry on.

[JoeChalupa]

But for me I am certain there is a God. Okay, I'm done.

[ALVAREZ6]

What I don't get is why non-believers think those of us who do have faith are "brain washed" or "believe in story tales" or act like we are somehow stupid simply because we choose to believe. I never push my religion on others and I can't stand it when non-believers push their scientific facts on me. If you don't believe fine.

I don't think you're all stupid or anything, I use the brainwash occasionally for the of it. I have no problem with people being religious, as long as it doesn't interfere with general society and our laws. It should be completely private. No one pushed scientific facts on you in the real world...if I saw you wearing a cross on the streets I wouldn't come up to you and share my ideas, not like a preacher spreading his ideas on streets. This is an internet discussion where the topic is atheism and religion, so that's why this is happening....