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Tom Copa? You'd rather have a center who couldn't get on the floor running the point?
The 99 team was soft?
By beating a 63-win Spurs team that was the defending champ on the road in game 7?with him as Dallas's coach, they were soft and constantly underachieved.
Tom Copa? You'd rather have a center who couldn't get on the floor running the point?
as i mentioned before, the '99 team had TIM DUNCAN (who was the true team leader by then) as well as mario elie whodespite not getting big numbers helped to toughen up the team mentally. previous to the Duncan era the Spurs ('led' by AJ) were certainly a soft, underachieving team.
and that same Mavs team-predictably- choked after blowing their load against the Spurs in one of the great Finals meltdowns in history, an epic underachievement
The fact that AJ has been acting like an asshole, especially in the Spurs-Mavs series in 2006, doesn't mean his number shouldn't have been retired. Everyone who has followed the Spurs closely at the time when he was our PG knows how valuable he was to the team, even though he certainly wasn't a great player.He meant a lot to this team and he was a big part of the '99 Championship run.
There's no point arguing with people who look at the 10 and 6 stats and say oh he was a bad PG, whatever. The same type of people will look at Bowen's numbers in a few years and will wonder why his jersey will be retired as well.
You're missing the point. AJ hasn't been acting like an asshole. AJ IS an asshole. It's not an act.
The fact that the Spurs didn't have a better option at PG isn't grounds for retiring his jersey. If you'll allow me a movie reference: AJ was important to the '99 Championship run in the same way Forrest Gump was important to the Viet Nam War - he was there, and he took part.
Look at it another way: there isn't another team in the league that would have retired Avery Johnson's jersey. The few players who get their jersies retired are legends. AJ took on extra importance here because the Spurs have such a loyal home town fan base. We'll embrace a guy like AJ, and treat him like royalty. The Celtics (for example) would die before seeing his jersey hanging in the rafters with the likes of Bill Russell. Well the AT&T Center has some pretty lofty company, too. And Avery Johnson just wasn't good enough to be one of them.
Youre the one talking about selective memory. In 1999, AJ was able to consistently hit the 12 foot jumper from the wing on the weakside. He would consistently get an open look from that spot as Duncan was getting doubled on the strongside. He also could get to the basket because Robinson/Duncan setting screens and the defense overplaying the bigman. Neither scenarios are anything other than him taking advantage of playing with the best frontcourt since Parrish/McHale/Bird.So how did he score 20PPG and shoot 65% against Kidd/KJ/Nash if never had a jumper and couldn't get to the basket? When did Vaughn ever put up 18 and 7? At Kansas?
As for Vaughn. Look up his stats and you'll see that he put that up in his second year in the league. Quite frankly Jacque Vaughn is a better ballplayer than Johnson. He played better defense was a better scorer and just as good of a passer.
Johnson is a spare.
i watched both Avery and Bowen's careers as spurs and theres no comparison. bowen had ty numbers but its easy as pie to see how important he was to us winning les. AJ was along for the ride.
The Little General will always have a special place in Spurfan's heart, but his jersey should not be hanging in the rafters.
If the Architect wants number 6 retired to honor the man, that should speak volumes. He was never a top 10 pg but he was an integral part of the Spurs for a pretty long time. Let it go.
I like Avery a lot, and agree with his statement that the Spurs are on the decline. Evidence over the past two seasons supports that. Acknowledging the facts doesn't make him a "traitor" or a "Spurs hater," and it should not cause us to question his love for the Spurs. After his many years of play for our Spurs, as well as his involvement since then, I don't think his devotion should be in question.
As for his jersey being retired, I prefer that teams (our Spurs included) reserve the honor of a retired jersey for those players who were truly outstanding. At the minimum, an All-Star Game appearance seems to be warranted, and in most cases some league honors. Players with special meaning to the team and/or city, or who hold a significant team record, should be considered. I think this is the rationale with regard to AJ. I don't really agree with it, but I don't think it is a huge deal either.
I have NO problem with a guy for doing his job, which is to analyze. Avery was a joy to watch, and I can still remember his distinctive leadership style. Getting in his teammates faces, and not allowing anyone to play below the level he himself played at. No, he wasn't the best defender, but he was good at getting into the lane and creating opportunities. Those who haven't played organized sports will never understand how important a guy like him is, and I'm not so sure the Spurs win that le (99') without him. I will always be an Avery fan, and can't wait until I get to visit San Antonio to glimpse that jersey hanging in the rafters.
As for Vaughn. Look up his stats and you'll see that he put that up in his second year in the league. Quite frankly Jacque Vaughn is a better ballplayer than Johnson. He played better defense was a better scorer and just as good of a passer.
Johnson is a spare.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jacque...eer_stats.html
2nd year: 2.3 ppg, 0.6 asg. A bit of a far cry from 18/7
His top year is 6.6 and 4.3 in Atlanta in 01-02. Why do you keep kicking your own ass in this thread?
I loved your AJ arguments too:
Argument 1: KJ owned AJ
I proceeded to show you AJ kicking KJ's (and Kidd's) ass in the 98 playoffs, which you obviously ignore because it's devastating to your argument.
Argument 2: Stockton owned AJ
I showed you a series where AJ more than held his own in 98, which is the time I noted when AJ finally arrived.
Argument 3: Terrell Brandon owned AJ
LOL. AJ curb-stomped Brandon in the playoffs; completely destroyed him.
Quit being a hater.
I don't like AJ and I was one of the few who felt his jersey shouldn't have been retired but I don't feel offended by his arguments. The last 2 years I have felt the spurs have been on the decline because the way they have lost games against elite teams. Can you guys ever remember a few years back the spurs calling it quits at the start of the third quarter because they felt they couldn't win the game. Thats all you need to know how far the spurs have gone down recently.
I've always thought that his jersey should have been retired in a toilet stall somewhere.
Look up cherry picking statistics and get back to me.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jacque...eer_stats.html
2nd year: 2.3 ppg, 0.6 asg. A bit of a far cry from 18/7
His top year is 6.6 and 4.3 in Atlanta in 01-02. Why do you keep kicking your own ass in this thread?
I loved your AJ arguments too:
Argument 1: KJ owned AJ
I proceeded to show you AJ kicking KJ's (and Kidd's) ass in the 98 playoffs, which you obviously ignore because it's devastating to your argument.
Argument 2: Stockton owned AJ
I showed you a series where AJ more than held his own in 98, which is the time I noted when AJ finally arrived.
Argument 3: Terrell Brandon owned AJ
LOL. AJ curb-stomped Brandon in the playoffs; completely destroyed him.
Quit being a hater.
Cherry picking? I said he was a top10 point guard by '98. Maybe 10 is a bit high, but not by much if at all. I posted series that directly refute your hating on AJ. AJ was excellent in the 98 post-season and pretty good in 99 too. It's laughable that you'd ever compare a solid starting point guard to worthless Jacque Vaughn and then make up statistics that are so far from reality to try to back it up.
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