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EPIC FAIL
Who is/was better at this stage of his career, LeBron James or Michael Jordan?
We realize we tread on sacred ground here. Nobody has matched Jordan for an entire career, by almost any measure. But it's important to note that the legend of MJ owes as much to his six NBA les as to his highlight reels, and that he didn't earn one until his seventh season in the league.
So we start at the beginning, with the most-self-serving-yet-most-repeated-on-talk-radio statistical analysis in the history of sports, the Terry Bradshaw Ring Test. By that measure, which states that a superstar's worth is solely defined by how many pro championships he's won, neither LBJ nor MJ was very good through the sixth season of their respective careers. Certainly they're not Kobe Bryant (three les) or Tim Duncan (two). , they're not even Beno Udrih (two).
After that, things grow murkier, with arguments either way. Check out this comparison of their first six seasons, courtesy of basketball-reference.com:
LEBRON JAMES VS. MICHAEL JORDAN: FIRST SIX SEASONS
A comparison of LeBron James and Michael Jordan across the first six seasons of their careers. These numbers are per 36 minutes.
Player FG% 3FG% FT% ORB DRB REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
James .471 .328 .738 1.1 5.1 6.2 5.9 1.6 0.8 2.9 1.8 24.4
Jordan .516 .282 .848 1.7 4.1 5.8 5.5 2.6 1.0 3.0 2.9 30.3
Jordan comes out as a better scorer and defender (at least by the measure of steals), and James a better rebounder, passer and, surprisingly, outside shooter (at least from outside the 3-point line). Going deeper into Basketball Reference's numbers using Dean Oliver's win-shares metric, the argument grows still more complex:
JORDAN VS. JAMES WIN SHARES
A next-level look at the relative value of MJ and LeBron over their first six seasons.
Player Name OWS DWS WS
LeBron James 55.6 27.8 83.4
Michael Jordan 65.4 23.8 89.2
Overall, Jordan has ac ulated more win shares, thanks largely to his edge in point production. But it turns out that, despite an early reputation as a naïf learning to play D, James has been a better defensive "winner." A curiosity in all this is one stat sometimes overlooked in Jordan career retrospectives: durability. Through six seasons, MJ played 50 fewer games than LBJ. Almost all of that owed to a foot injury in Jordan's second year, but LBJ's minutes per game are higher for most of his early years:
LEBRON JAMES' FIRST SIX SEASONS: MINUTES
A look at The King's time on the floor across his first six seasons.
Year Games Games Started MPG
2003-04 79 79 39.5
2004-05 80 80 42.4
2005-06 79 79 42.5
2006-07 78 78 40.9
2007-08 75 74 40.4
2008-09 81 81 37.7
MICHAEL JORDAN'S FIRST SIX SEASONS: MINUTES
MJ's time logged during his first six years in the league.
Year Games Games Started MPG
1984-85 82 82 38.3
1985-86 18 7 25.1
1986-87 82 82 40.0
1987-88 81 81 40.2
1988-89 75 74 40.4
1989-90 82 82 39.0
A look back at Sam Smith's "The Jordan Rules" shows that MJ believed he wore down late in seasons and wanted to add strength to his post-up game. So he began seriously lifting weights, for the first time, in his seventh year, 1990-91, coinciding with his first le. Even though James was two years younger than MJ was when each entered the league, he grew up in a more fitness-crazed era, in a football-crazed state, where serious weight workouts were part of a high school athlete's routine. James has accelerated his training as a pro, adding more mass and explosiveness to his already unfair physique.
And therein may be the final argument for LBJ, at least so far. Michael struck fear into opponents -- a fear of embarrassment. His incredible quickness and agility could land you on the wrong end of a poster, sure. But tougher to take was his ruthless compe iveness, which he used to humiliate opponents (and if the Rodney McCray stories are true, even teammates).
James inspires a different fear, the kind in which a player is scared for his own physical well-being. His combination of speed, bulk and explosiveness hasn't been seen since, well, ever. The Pistons beat up the young Michael Jordan in the playoffs. If you were quick enough to get in front of him, you didn't fear taking a charge. But who, seriously, would stand in the way of James at full tilt on a breakaway dunk?
Six seasons into his career, James inspires a kind of awe that not even early MJ possessed -- that of a man playing a different sport than everybody else, something akin to Lawrence Taylor or Jim Brown on a football field.
Of course, beginning with his seventh season, Jordan built his own aura with his six les. And that aura is unlikely to be surpassed as a complete body of work. Unless, of course, LeBron wins a ring this year and hauls in five more.
Maybe there is something to that Bradshaw stat.
Luke Cyphers is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine.
EPIC FAIL
I think Lebron will go down as the 2nd greatest of all time.
He is so transcendent right now that if you swapped him with the best player of 10 other teams they would immediately become the best team in the NBA.
A very unconvincing article.
Imagine if Jordan would have played under the league rules now in his prime. It would appear he would be an even more phenomenal player. The league is more geared towards the offense. No hand checking, no hard fouls, nothing. Jordan use to get used and abused, in his first 6 years, during the playoffs. Lebron still has a lot to prove.
MJ is still the GOAT, but some people seriously overrate the guy. Guys like Lebron, Wade, and Kobe are not as far off as some people think, and in terms of individual talents/gifts, its arguable that he might rank last place out of those 4 guys.
Go ahead and argue over this topic until you're blue in the face, but the bottom line is that they both are/were tremendous basketball players and successful human beings.
END OF THREAD
i think the only argument against MJ is that he didnt have to deal with the Zone offense, which gave him much better opportunities to drive the lane. I dont really by the hand checking thing since that stuff still happens all the time today.
To be fair, Jordan also played in eras that focused less on defense, and more on offense. Many players were able to score more points because of the run heavy styles that prevailed, and the general lack of defense, whereas most of todays game has slowed down a bit with more attention to defense and rebounding. Also zone defense is allowed today. Not saying that MJ couldn't overcome it, but it would still slow him down some, as it does to any individual scorer. Add to that, the fact that there are a LOT of damn good defenders in todays league, such as Bowen, Artest, Battier, Posey, etc... as well as better offensive players at the SG/SF positions as well, people that are on or even above his level athletically, which was unheard of back in the 80's/90's. Jordan would have a much harder time guarding guys like Kobe, Wade, and Lebron, as opposed to Nique and Clyde.
I don't think Jordan would be the scorer he was in the 80s, in today's league at all. He would still be fantastic, don't get me wrong, but no way in would he be better.
LeBron's going to be on that list of 10 Greatest Players to never win a ring pretty soon.
He was just born at the wrong time, just like Barkley and Jordan.
75 win mother ing ecstasy!!!!
Yeah, hand checking is pretty much allowed unless its a blatant push, or the arm is fully extended.
Dallas Mavs muther ing 2006 NBA Champs!!!!75 win mother ing ecstasy!!!!
Agreed
Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, BigZ are around ~35. The only young Big the Cavs have is Verajao.
If LeBron don't win this year, he's screwed.
How could he not be better? In the 80's teams were allowed to hand check and they fouled hard. I think Jordan would have excelled in today's game. In his last 2 years on the Wizards he averaged 22.9 and 20.0 ppg. This is after he was well past his prime. I believe Jordan would have been a better scorer than he was in the 80's with today's rules.
Edit: I saw your edit, so I'll edit mine too. I think that it would go both ways. He would have to defend Kobe and Lebron, but they in turn would have to guard him. The NBA does have some great perimeter defenders, now put them back in the 80's where physicality was tolerated. Those guys would be beasts on the defensive end. They could get away with a lot more than they already do. I think it's a testament to Jordan that he did what he did. I'm not trying to diminish anything that Lebron has done or will do. I think Jordan/Lebron are pure joy to watch play talent wise.
Last edited by manufan10; 05-19-2009 at 01:05 PM.
so basically, the man wrote an entire article trying to explain why LeBron is better than MJ, and the best he could come up with is that nobody wants to get hit by LeBron when he's on his way to the basket?? GIVE. ME. A. ING. BREAK!!
Yup...you need to adjust the stats for pace of game when comparing MJ to LeBron.
LeBron James is playing at a level that is simply breathtaking to watch. Unless he gets injured, the Cavs will win the NBA Championship this year.
if you take lebrons defensive win shares and add his total assists per 48 minutes, then compare it to the ratio of pi to the length of jordan's forearm, you get a an equal sum to the age of lebron in dog years. this multipied by the average weather at 4:58 pm in san antonio = jordan.
hahaha oh brother at the extreme extraoplation of stats and vague measures that are getting ridiculous
Teams still hand check, and can also play zone defense. And simply look at the compe ion like I said... athletically, NO ONE had a chance in at containing Jordan, whereas today, the league is full of athletes on par with Jordan. Jordan was able to just blow right by guys who simply were not quick enough to guard him. Wouldn't happen as easily today. And teams preach defense a lot more in today's league, whereas the 80's was all about run, run, run. Terrible defense, terrible rebounding, and faster paces led to more scoring.
Jordan would have had a tougher time scoring in today's league. And that is because zone defenses are now allowed. Most teams don't run zones, but hybrid zones where they load up on one side and force perimeter players into traps. Basically shutting down the middle of the paint and conceding the jumpshot. Also you can double team a man in the post who doesn't have the ball, which was illegal in MJ's time, and that would have limited Jordan's incredible post up game.
Lebron can overcome this because of his freakish athleticism, however, when that goes so will his game because his jumper is not developed and likely never will be. He has mediocre footwork, no post game to speak of, and what most would consider a mediocre midrange shooting touch for a superstar perimeter player.
To compare him to MJ is laughable IMHO because he will never be able to have the extended career that MJ did. What you're seeing from Lebron right now and in the next 2-3 years will be the best basketball he will ever play because he's in his athletic prime.
I agree that they are both incredible talents.
But your argument about Kobe/Lebron having to defend him is already kinda out the window, since they already have to defend each other, as well as Wade. And IMO, Lebron and Wade are both tougher to guard 1-on-1 than Jordan.
And your point about perimeter defenders today actually served my point well. If you stuck them in the 80s, NO ONE would even be on their level defensively. Thats how much better the premier defenders today are, as opposed to the top defenders of the 80s.
Jordan wasn't exactly much of a shooter coming into the league either. In fact, if he was a rookie in today's league, he would probably be bashed for similar things, because he wouldn't be able to completely dominate games by penetration alone, like he was in the 80s. A lot of that is because of the advanced defensive schemes of today's game. In fact, its even arguable that he wouldn't even be nearly as effective as Lebron was able to be coming into the league. But over time, Jordan developed a very solid and consistent shot. To say Lebron never will is purely re ed. His footwork and postgame has improved a lot too. You must still be thinking of the Lebron of 2-3 years ago.
And obviously you don't realize how well Lebron takes care of his body. He will last longer than you think. Every time he is done with a game, you will see him on the sidelines with ice all around his joints. His workout routine and diet is incredible. The guy will be around for a long time.
Bah...if you wanna talk rings, MJ's got nothing on Bill Russell.
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