Take a note, Kobe

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Idk why I'm a flip flopper here. I have no emotional tie to either Lebron or Kobe, so I simply don't always argue for one of them. I don't think that makes me a flip flopper.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The defense thing is a good point by Jamstone I will admit (now everyone is going to call me a flip flopper I guess). Lebron's coaching staff and teammates are way better defenders than what Kobe had.

[TheNextGen]

LOL... like every other re Kobe fan, you act like Odom never existed and never had an incredible series.

and your a dumbass for not reading ahead to see the reason behind my mistake

[JamStone]

My bad. I accidentally divided the numbers by 6 games instead of 7. Odom still beats the out of anyone James has next to him; those numbers still kill anything he's gotten in the way of support this series, so Kobe nuthuggers can quit with this talk that he had nothing and James has this great cast backing him.

Consider the defensive end where they made Tim Thomas and Eddie House look like Larry Bird and Jerry West. Odom was good. It's still not easy to play basically 2-on-5. Luke Walton guarding Marion or Diaw? With no Amare, Kwame had to guard either James Jones, Boris Diaw, or Marion too. Lol, yeah, I'm sure he enjoyed that. That Suns match-up for the 2006 Lakers is similar to this Orlando match-up for the current Cavaliers. They just couldn't match up with the small ball line-up Phoenix put out there. Four of the Suns perimeter players shot over 50% from the field for the series. Perimeter players. That's ridiculous.

James didn't have help in 2007, agreed. But, while Odom was a good player, that's about all Kobe had in 2006. And, those Lakers just couldn't match up with that Suns team. James had one outstanding series against a good team in Detroit to cement the legacy of that 2007 playoffs, and in fact it was really only 1 game, game 5 where he had those 48 points and 25 consecutive points to close out the game. Daniel Gibson actually was the difference in game 6. LeBron shot 3-for-11 in the close out game 6. LeBron actually had 2 good games in terms of carrying the offense in the 6 games against Detroit in the 2007 ECF.

So while he's a great, great player, the best player in the league right now, it's a little funny how his legend was established by one unbelievable, incredible performance in the fourth quarter and two overtime sessions of one game in a playoff run that ended with his team getting swept in the Finals.

[TheMACHINE]

The defense thing is a good point by Jamstone I will admit (now everyone is going to call me a flip flopper I guess). Lebron's coaching staff and teammates are way better defenders than what Kobe had.

hi john kerry

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

and your a dumbass for not reading ahead to see the reason behind my mistake

You're the bigger dumbass for making the mistake.

[Allanon]

Idk why I'm a flip flopper here. I have no emotional tie to either Lebron or Kobe, so I simply don't always argue for one of them. I don't think that makes me a flip flopper.

Because as a Suns fan, you know the Suns between 04 and 07 were one of the mightiest teams in the NBA.

I mean got damn, you guys had Joe Johnson coming off the bench for you....there were some really talented teams.

But just to make LeBron look like a God and Kobe look like a sheep, you are putting down your own team even though they were much better than the weak team you're makng them to be

We know you haven't put down the flip-flops when it comes to the purple and gold...I don't think you've had even 1 good post about Kobe...ever

[baseline bum]

And did you miss the 2007 Finals? A dejected LeBron James in an elimination game against the Spurs went 10-for-30 from the field, 2-for-6 from the free throw line, and had 6 turnovers at home in game 4. When you're frustrated with your teammates and you're playing a team you know is going to beat you, it sucks. Given that game, should we expect LeBron to shoot 33% from the field and the free throw line and turn the ball over like a hot potato in the next game or if it ends up going 7?

That's one bad performance out of 4 elimination games. The other three were 27/8/2 against Detroit in game 7 of 06, 45/5/6 against Boston in game 7 of 08, and 37/15/12 last night. Not quite like Kobe's perfect 6 for 6 no-shows. The original point stands: LeBron is a big-game player with his back against the wall, Kobe isn't, as he has thrown up stinkers consistently over the past 7 seasons of his prime (counting this one) when he has faced elimination.

[DPG21920]

Ok, my mistake. However, I will add this. Why do you stop at three players? Are the games played 4-on-4 with no subs utions? Kobe had one very solid player to help him. When Kwame Brown and Luke Walton are your third and fourth best players on your team, that should tell you something. Additionally, it wasn't only about who else was scoring for that 06 Lakers team in the playoffs against the Suns. The Suns shot 49% from the field for the series. For 7 games, they basically shot 50%. That's because Luke Walton and Smush Parker and Kwame Brown were the guys on defense. They shot 40% from three point range as a team. As a team. Not only were Kobe's teammates underwhelming on offense, they were horrible on defense.

You can't say to a certainty if Kobe was on that Cavs team, he wouldn't have done something similar to LeBron. He probably doesn't, but it's no guarantee.

And did you miss the 2007 Finals? A dejected LeBron James in an elimination game against the Spurs went 10-for-30 from the field, 2-for-6 from the free throw line, and had 6 turnovers at home in game 4. When you're frustrated with your teammates and you're playing a team you know is going to beat you, it sucks. Given that game, should we expect LeBron to shoot 33% from the field and the free throw line and turn the ball over like a hot potato in the next game or if it ends up going 7? No, of course not. Because each situation, each playoff scenario, each opponent presents different variables to different players. Kobe has had his share of failures. There is no doubt about that. So has LeBron. LeBron gets glorified for every little thing he does right. And, Kobe gets criticized for every little thing he does wrong. But, that's what goes along with being a superstar. I just think it's silly to try to compare the two in terms of who has had better supporting casts or try to dissect every little qualification and factor to try to skew an argument for or against either player. Kobe gets no credit for the 2000-2002 les because of Shaq. It's like his play in those le runs don't factor at all to Kobe haters. His extreme selfish performances of quitting on his team in game 7 of the 2006 Phoenix series and ego trip in the 2004 Finals are always the bottom line for how he is as a player with no qualifiers. He gets bashed for getting beat by the Celtics last year even though Gasol and Odom were no-shows (and I know they put up decent stats, but anyone who watched the Finals know their stats aren't indicative of how poorly and how soft they played), while LeBron gets swept in the Finals and is lauded because his teammates sucked.

Yeah, Kobe suckers are annoying. But, Kobe haters are often just as bad.

Defense is about effort, and Lebron's teams gave more effort. I stopped at 4 players because just like everyone talks about Big 3's now when they assess a teams chances to win, those are the guys doing the bulk of the heavy lifting.

Yes, Lebron's stats in game 4 were bad, but at least he did come out and shoot. Not to mention, that is not apples to apples. Lebron was about to get swept. I would be willing to bet that if it was a game 7, Lebron would have fared much better and put much more effort in.

"Strangely, though, Bryant's will to keep shooting didn't last much longer, bringing a muted close to his prolific season. The Ocho attempted just three shots in the second half after ringing up 23 points in the first, in what looked su iously like a surrender. Jackson and Bryant both insisted afterward that they were in accord with the second-half approach -- that another 50-point game, as Kobe submitted in Game 6, was not going to save them here -- but it was one more dose of bizarre in a series that had everything."

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

hi john kerry

Idk if that's a joke or not but I'm simply stating the obvious.

[TheNextGen]

Because as a Suns fan, you know the Suns between 04 and 07 were one of the mightiest teams in the NBA.

I mean got damn, you guys had Joe Johnson coming off the bench for you....there were some really talented teams.

But just to make LeBron look like a God and Kobe look like a sheep, you are putting down your own team

We know you haven't put down the flip-flops when it comes to the purple and gold...I don't think you've had even 1 good post about Kobe...ever

i agree..DoK should be like "lebron and kobe would both get WTF pwned by the Suns!"...but just to prove that lebron is GOD, he puts down a might godly team like the Suns. Shame on you.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

We know you haven't put down the flip-flops when it comes to the purple and gold...I don't think you've had even 1 good post about Kobe...ever

bump the thread where Rapper tried to argue Gasol is more important to the Lakers than Kobe is.

[TheNextGen]

That's one bad performance out of 4 elimination games. The other three were 27/8/2 against Detroit in game 7 of 06, 45/5/6 against Boston in game 7 of 08, and 37/15/12 last night. Not quite like Kobe's perfect 6 for 6 no-shows. The original point stands: LeBron is a big-game player with his back against the wall, Kobe isn't, as he has thrown up stinkers consistently over the past 7 seasons of his prime (counting this one) when he has faced elimination.

Ok...fine....Lebron does better in elimination games...so what? They both should try to avoid those in the first place.

That stat is so overrated...actually, your the only one who ever brings it up. lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Because as a Suns fan, you know the Suns between 04 and 07 were one of the mightiest teams in the NBA.

I mean got damn, you guys had Joe Johnson coming off the bench for you....there were some really talented teams.

But just to make LeBron look like a God and Kobe look like a sheep, you are putting down your own team even though they were much better than the weak team you're makng them to be

The 2006 Suns weren't very good, plain and simple.

The 2007 Suns were good and I haven't put them down once in this thread.

And please tell me when the Suns had Joe Johnson coming off the bench, I'm anxious to know since I apparently wasn't watching.

[TheMACHINE]

Ok...fine....Lebron does better in elimination games...so what? They both should try to avoid those in the first place.

That stat is so overrated...actually, your the only one who ever brings it up. lol

[DPG21920]

How did Boston do last year in the playoffs? did they not go 7 games like 3 times?

Um, no, they went to game 7 twice. No wonder you think my arguments are dumb, you are a re .

Let me outline this in short-bus, easy to understand fashion for you:

1) Celts went to game 7's twice
2) Celts went on to win a le, the Suns did not, they got bounced by a choking Mavs team.
3) The Suns went to game 7's with "the worst team ever" in the Lakers and the CLIPPERS
4) The Celts went to game 7 with a strong Hawks team and against a Lebron Cavs team.


Not even close to an accurate comparison or analogy.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The 2006 Suns only made the conference finals because of the bull playoff seeding system that got corrected after that season. Again, call me a bad Suns fan for saying that, but we all know it's true.

[DrHouse]

Damn Jamstone laying down the law.

Excellent analysis

[DPG21920]

By some act of God, the Clipps had a good team that year. The Mavs were the best team in the NBA. The Suns overlooked the Lakers and got a wakeup call, and eventually came back and won a series after being down 3-1. The Suns were a top 4 team for about 3 years. They never won a le, but they were far from weak as you would like to put it. In fact, that team would beat the team James is on right now.

Like I said, it was fluke of a Clippers team, the worlds worst team in the Lakers and Dallas team that was talented, but not nearly as talented as many other champion teams.

Me saying they were weak was obviously tongue-in-cheek. They were a good team but far from this juggernaut that Lakers fans are making them out to be in order to support their argument.

[Allanon]

The 2006 Suns weren't very good, plain and simple.

2006 Suns made it to the Western Conference Finals and they "weren't very good" The 2007 Suns didn't even make it that far and you're saying THEY were good. That's where the flip-flopper reputation comes from.

The 2007 Suns were good and I haven't put them down once in this thread.

That was a bad-ass team... no embarrasment for Smush/Kwame/Luke to lose to them.

And please tell me when the Suns had Joe Johnson coming off the bench, I'm anxious to know since I apparently wasn't watching.

Are you saying Joe Johnson never came off the bench for the Suns? I can go research exact game dates if you want.

[baseline bum]

Ok...fine....Lebron does better in elimination games...so what? They both should try to avoid those in the first place.

That stat is so overrated...actually, your the only one who ever brings it up. lol

Why is it overrated? An elimination game is when a player feels by far the most pressure he will ever face, and LeBron clearly deals with the pressure better. Kobe's got a big-game reputation built on riding Shaq for three quarters.

[JamStone]

That's one bad performance out of 4 elimination games. The other three were 27/8/2 against Detroit in game 7 of 06, 45/5/6 against Boston in game 7 of 08, and 37/15/12 last night. Not quite like Kobe's perfect 6 for 6 no-shows. The original point stands: LeBron is a big-game player with his back against the wall, Kobe isn't, as he has thrown up stinkers consistently over the past 7 seasons of his prime (counting this one) when he has faced elimination.

In 2006, the Pistons' strategy was to let LeBron score all the points and shut everyone else on the Cavs down. I say it worked since LeBron only had 2 assists, no other Cavalier scored more than 10 points, and the Pistons won.

And why did you ignore the significance of that 2007 NBA Finals game 4 elimination game for LeBron? 10-for-30 from the field, 2-for-6 from the free throw line (mind you the Spurs won by 1 point), and 6 turnovers at home.

How about the close out game against the 2007 ECF against the Pistons? Not an elimination game for the Cavs, but it might as well should have been because game 7 was in Detroit. 3-for-11 from the field for LeBron, while he watched a rookie Daniel Gibson save his ass.

LeBron is a great player, but let's hold off putting him at an untouchable level just yet. Kobe had that quitting game against Phoenix in 2006 and his ego trip in the 2004 NBA Finals. I don't think last year against Boston was on Kobe. That Boston team was better and they didn't give Kobe a chance to play well in game 6. They trucked the Lakers to make that a moot point. So, as I see it, Kobe has had two really bad performances in elimination games, just like LeBron has had. I don't know where this 6-for-6 no-shows comes from.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Are you saying Joe Johnson never came off the bench for the Suns? I can go research exact game dates if you want.

Show me when the Suns were a good team that they had JJ coming off the bench, so in other words, not the 2003-2004 season when they won 29 games and he came off the bench 5 times.

[DrHouse]

Why is it overrated? An elimination game is when a player feels by far the most pressure he will ever face, and LeBron clearly deals with the pressure better. Kobe's got a big-game reputation built on riding Shaq for three quarters.

So what?

Lebron is better than Kobe right now. So what?

Lebron could very well get eliminated from the playoffs and Kobe is on the verge of making it to the Finals again. Isn't that more important than this current discussion?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

2006 Suns made it to the Western Conference Finals and they "weren't very good" The 2007 Suns didn't even make it that far and you're saying THEY were good. That's where the flip-flopper reputation comes from.

You know that argument is completely re ed bull , if the 2007 Suns got to avoid the Spurs like the 2006 Suns, they would have won a championship. Stop acting like in rain man where you are unable to read between the lines at all.