washington wants manu for the 5th pick

[pad300]

I don't think Spurs can get the right role players via trade/FA without taking salaries after 2010.

A pessimistic assesment IMO. A playoff rotation is 8 or 9 players; 2 PG's 3 Wings, 3 Bigs, and maybe 1 more good player. We Already have at least 6 of those...
PG's - Tony, Hill
Wings - Manu, Mason, Bowen (maybe; he looked fine IMO against Dallas)
Big - TD, KT (maybe, he might drop off this year)

We need at least 1 Big (maybe 2) and likely a wing. We have Mahinmi as a prospect, and several more prospects for that wing position (Hairston, Gist [either as a SF or a PF], Williams). Assuming 1 of 4 comes through, you think we can't find a single worthy body from trades, FA or the draft? I'd say that's pretty pessimistic...

Well, chances are lower that Ginobili will sign for the near MLE if you can offer him only a 4 years contract instead of a 5 years contract.

True, but the hope remains. Also, how does the interaction between the Bird/Early Bird and Non-Bird Exceptions work?

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q19

NON-BIRD EXCEPTION -- This is also a component of the Veteran Free Agent exception. Players who qualify for this exception are called "Non-Qualifying Veteran Free Agents" in the CBA. They are veteran free agents who are neither Qualifying Veteran Free Agents nor Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agents, either because they haven't met the criteria, or because they are Early Bird free agents following the second season of their rookie scale contract and whose team renounced the Early-Bird exception. This exception allows a team to re-sign its own free agent to a salary starting at 120% of the player's salary in the previous season, 120% of the minimum salary, or the amount needed to tender a qualifying offer (if the player is a restricted free agent -- see question number 36), whichever is greater. Raises are limited to 8% of the salary in the first year of the contract, and contracts are limited to five seasons when this exception is used.

Bolding is mine

This suggests that you can renounce early bird rights and retain the non-bird exception for an FA, allowing you to resign them outside the cap.
This creates powerful scenarios, of renouncing a players early bird rights for cap room, signing an FA into that cap room, and then using the Non-Bird Exception, which would be retained to resign the original FA. I don't think it's supposed to work that way, but that's how I read that section. Also, it says nothing about renouncing actual Bird Rights... in this limited case are Bird Rights worse than Early Bird rights?

Assuming that my take on the interaction is in fact correct, and you can do the same thing with Bird Rights, we could potentially come to a deal with Manu before the FA period starts in 2010, renounce his Bird rights, sign FA's and then use the Non-Bird Exception to sign Manu, as he would clearly be getting less than 120% of his current salary...

[DPG21920]

Pad, I think he means the Spurs would not be able to land a player via trade or FA without their contracts going beyond 2010. There will be talent available and people will be able to obtain it cheaply (meaning you won't have to give up talent to get it), but it will be with guys whos contracts extend beyond 2010.

It will be with teams looking to salary dump. The question then becomes: is this player good enough to scrap the 2010 plan for and how much wiggle room will there be to change directions if the player fails?

[Bruno]

This suggests that you can renounce early bird rights and retain the non-bird exception for an FA, allowing you to resign them outside the cap.

You misread the CBA FAQ.

"whose team renounced the Early-Bird exception" only apply for first round pick whose team hasn't picked the third year team option.

[ducks]

The best thing about Manu is that he puts winning above everything else.

he not care if he start or not
but he does what he wants when injured and spurs do not
he did not put winning above him this last season

[Johnny RIngo]

The "2010" plan seems kind of like wishful thinking. What "big-time" free agrent is going to be interested in coming to SA?

My sentiments exactly. Spurs need to do whatever it takes to win now.

[Mal]

No f-way.... Manu for 5th and filler ?? Please don`t do this .

Manu gives Wizz even contender. Young guy isnt necesary in Wash. They have young guys, and proven stars. Selling 5th is best option for them.

[Brazil]

You misread the CBA FAQ.

"whose team renounced the Early-Bird exception" only apply for first round pick whose team hasn't picked the third year team option.

Bruno is just a machine

[024]

if it's ginobili for butler + the fifth pick... although butler is injury prone. would be effective in defending bryant and lebron.

[ducks]

if it's ginobili for butler + the fifth pick... although butler is injury prone. would be effective in defending bryant and lebron.

kobe going down toliet soon
james will be on si cover and get hurt next year

[DPG21920]

There is no way they give up Butler for Manu, that would defeat the purpose of getting him.

[SpursFan0728]

Trading manu away for a fifth pick does not make any sense especially we are heading towards the end of Duncan's era.

[DPG21920]

Trading manu away for a fifth pick does not make any sense especially we are heading towards the end of Duncan's era.

It makes sense if they are dead set on adhering to the 2010 plan and Manu is not in their future. It would suck for next year and it would be a risk because you do not know if you can lure a FA to play in SA, but the line of thinking is you get a top 5 pick and young player, bring in some other cheap, young pieces, let them develop for one year.

That way you have given some young, athletic players a chance to grow and become useful role players then you get a big FA and make your push for the next 2-3 years.

[GSH]

Couldn't OKC package the #3 pick and Earl Watson in a trade for Manu? I know that they would have to actually draft (and sign) the #3 for the Spurs, but at that point he would be worth the rookie scale. Unless I'm missing something, the numbers work.

I think OKC is going to try to move Watson anyway, and Presti knows what Manu brings to a team. He could bring a lot to that young Thunder roster.

The Spurs would get a reasonably competent third PG and Thabeet or Jordan Hill. Would either be worth the trade?

[DPG21920]

I do not think Presti is taking on any injury risks and it is clear with the Chandler trade, they are looking for a big man. I think he would rather draft Thabeet and get that guy who could be better than Chandler, younger and cheaper than bring in Manu for what could be a one year rental.

[rascal]

There is no way they give up Butler for Manu, that would defeat the purpose of getting him.

Maybe washington is desperate to open cap space to be a major player in 2010. Let them go after the pipe dream instead of the spurs.

They can get expiring contracts + Manu packaged from the spurs. Then they can target a quality big. They wont be winning anything without getting a star big and they might think this is the only way they can get a star big.

Butler > Manu on future potential alone.

[DPG21920]

You are saying they would want to get Manu for one year, keep their expirings, essentially doubling their cap space for 2010? Maybe.

I would be happy with that. You could use the 5th pick to replace Manu, now you have your SF with Butler then you can use the MLE for the next two years.

Of course there is always the Sean Elliott case where a player is traded, then comes back. I would love that for Manu, but he would have to except the MLE which might be a tough sale if he is healthy.

Wiz would have a pretty big hole at SF they would need to fill as well. I don't see this happening, but I would not mind if it did. Caron is better than anything the Spurs could hope for in 2010 and he is well priced.

[rascal]

Please explain? Gino expires in 2010, so it doesn't open more cap space; in fact the 5th pick would take a small (~2.7 million I think) chunk away. The other question, of course is what would come back to balance Manu's outgoing salary; remember WAS is over the cap. The proposals so far (Mine, Kobyz and Rascal's) have all got SAS taking back salary into 2011 (Bultler and Stevenson both have contracts that extend to 2010/11).

The spurs would have to scrap the 2010 plan and go for the win now philosphy. Let washington go for the 2010 plan. If they can add Butler and the 5'th pick that would be a great deal for the spurs to win now.

[DPG21920]

Most everyone is in agreement if the offer was Butler + 5th for Manu the Spurs would do it. Just seems highly unlikely for many reasons.

[rascal]

Washington is willing to trade the 5'th pick for Manu as it is. If they are big on the 2010 plan then will they part with Butler to have a chance at opening cap space to target a star big in 2010? Could be a tough sell to get them to include Butler but like I said they won't win anything with the bigs they have now.

[Mel_13]

Most everyone is in agreement if the offer was Butler + 5th for Manu the Spurs would do it. Just seems highly unlikely for many reasons.

It's amazing that you have to keep explaining this, but I applaud your patience.

If the Wizards traded Butler and the 5th pick for Manu then the Washington GM should get fired for monumental stupidity. Butler is an all-star on a reasonable contract. If the Wizards want to get relief for all or most of his salary they won't have to pay for the privilege by giving away the 5th pick. There will be much better deals than Manu's expiring contract available, deals which will remove all or part of his salary without giving up the 5th pick.

[DPG21920]

Why Butler and not Jamison? From that standpoint, Jamison is older and makes more money and has a longer contract.

If they were in that mode, they could shop Jamison and the pick and probably get more than Manu or do what you suggest the Spurs do and pick someone up now via trade and avoid the hassle of 2010.

I have heard about Amare for Jamison.

[crc21209]

Manu for the 5th pick in this draft? NO. Give Manu ONE more yr to prove himself. I think TD, TP, Manu, and Bruce have at LEAST one more left in them...

[baseline bum]

The spurs would have to scrap the 2010 plan and go for the win now philosphy. Let washington go for the 2010 plan. If they can add Butler and the 5'th pick that would be a great deal for the spurs to win now.

That ain't happening, although the pipe dream of Butler + #5 + some bad salaries for Manu + expiring contracts would likely be a great move for the team.

[Mel_13]

Washington is willing to trade the 5'th pick for Manu as it is. If they are big on the 2010 plan then will they part with Butler to have a chance at opening cap space to target a star big in 2010? Could be a tough sell to get them to include Butler but like I said they won't win anything with the bigs they have now.

Really?

This the quote from the original blog:

One thing that's not in doubt: The Wizards are actively dangling the fifth pick for a starting veteran. They are said to have contacted San Antonio to find out about the availability of Manu Ginobili, but that rumor was quickly shot down by both sides.

This is just some guy with a basketball blog repeating unsubstantiated and unsourced rumors. Rumors which even he admits have no basis in truth.

[rascal]

That ain't happening, although the pipe dream of Butler + #5 + some bad salaries for Manu + expiring contracts would likely be a great move for the team.

Of course it is not happening. The spurs don't make major trades to get stars.
I am just throwing stuff out there that won't ever happen.