I shook hands with Martin Nash

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I actually agree with Gino here. Suns weren't contenders till Barkley came along. I think what JMJ meant though is Kevin Johnson was a better overall Sun because he played in Phoenix his entire career. KJ > Steve Nash.

Jason Kidd > Steve Nash though. When he was the PG on the Suns they were a top 5 defensive team.

The best all time Sun is Alvan Adams though. 2nd all time in points scored, 1st all time in rebounds, and 3rd all time in assists.

[JMarkJohns]

You cant talk about Rose colored glasses and then claim that Kevin Johnson was "better" than Charles Barkley.

Kevin Johnson was a great player and would be a top 3 PG today and Im sure he was your FAVORITE player, but he was never as dominant as Barkley was in his prime.

Theres no point in even debating this. If you think that Kevin Johnson was honestly "better" than Charles Barkley at winning basketball games, then I cant help you.

Barkley was with the Suns 3+ seasons and shot his way out of town. He's not a long-tenured player, and while he was the most talented and most significant player in the Suns history, as a long-time Suns fan I appreciate long-time players. KJ killed himself for the team. He's by far their best player for a player's career with the Suns. If you couldn't see the implications my initial post made, then I apologize for not being clear. I think it was pretty well stated.

Barkley = most talented/significant rent-a-player in Suns history
Johnson = best career Suns player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

JMJ, I love KJ, but even though he was way before my time, Alvan Adam's Suns career > KJ's Suns career.

[JMarkJohns]

I actually agree with Gino here. Suns weren't contenders till Barkley came along. I think what JMJ meant though is Kevin Johnson was a better overall Sun because he played in Phoenix his entire career. KJ > Steve Nash.

Jason Kidd > Steve Nash though. When he was the PG on the Suns they were a top 5 defensive team.

The best all time Sun is Alvan Adams though. 2nd all time in points scored, 1st all time in rebounds, and 3rd all time in assists.

This is pretty accurate to my line of thinking.

As far as Adams vs. Johnson in career Suns, you're probably right. However, I think that's largely a byproduct of KJ's multiple injuries and cut-short prime. In his few healthy prime years, KJ's 21+ points and 11+ assists would have devastated the Suns record books had he stayed healthy.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Agreed, KJ would be a HOFer if not for that Duckworth incident where he tore his hammy and was never the same.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And if not for being a drug addict snitch, Walter "Sweet D" Davis would be right up there with those two.

[lefty]

Agreed, KJ would be a HOFer if not for that Duckworth incident where he tore his hammy and was never the same.

DEespite that, KJ is a HOF in my books

Second best guard in the 90's behind youknowwho, IMO

[ShoogarBear]

I thought the best Sun of all time was Rex Chapman.

[JMarkJohns]

My opinion of KJ is so founded within his first five seasons with the Suns that often it's hard for me to combine the pre-injury, 22-12-type KJ with the post-injuries, 17-8-type KJ. I'm sure Adams was a great talent, but it's hard for me to imagine he was a better player than KJ. It's unfair of me to say KJ is the best career Suns player by far, however. Adams has a of a claim, as you pointed out.

[JMarkJohns]

And if not for being a drug addict snitch, Walter "Sweet D" Davis would be right up there with those two.

Possibly. Best scorer, but best player? Maybe, but I don't think so.

[JMarkJohns]

DEespite that, KJ is a HOF in my books

Second best guard in the 90's behind youknowwho, IMO

That's very high praise. I think Stockton, largely because he avoided injury, compiled better stats and had more success within the decade. Payton was also very, very good for the 90s. Without the injuries, I couldn't agree more, but KJ with the injuries as the decade's second-best guard behind Jordan? I'd really have to think that over... and that's from a KJ apologist like myself.

[lefty]

That's very high praise. I think Stockton, largely because he avoided injury, compiled better stats and had more success within the decade. Payton was also very, very good for the 90s. Without the injuries, I couldn't agree more, but KJ with the injuries as the decade's second-best guard behind Jordan? I'd really have to think that over... and that's from a KJ apologist like myself.

Also, KJ is one of the very few selects guards who combined at least 20 ppg and 10 apg during the same season

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My opinion of KJ is so founded within his first five seasons with the Suns that often it's hard for me to combine the pre-injury, 22-12-type KJ with the post-injuries, 17-8-type KJ. I'm sure Adams was a great talent, but it's hard for me to imagine he was a better player than KJ. It's unfair of me to say KJ is the best career Suns player by far, however. Adams has a of a claim, as you pointed out.

I barely remember KJ. Pre-injury KJ was way before my time.

The only reason I say Adams had a better Suns career was cause the stats make a pretty indisputable case. I didn't watch nearly enough of either one to be able to judge based on that.

[JMarkJohns]

Also, KJ is one of the very few selects guards who combined at least 20 ppg and 10 apg during the same season

He just missed doing such four consecutive seasons by .3 ppg. Over that four-year prime he average 21.2 ppg, 11.1 apg, 1.8 spg on 49.8 FG%.

[lefty]

He just missed doing such four consecutive seasons by .3 ppg. Over that four-year prime he average 21.2 ppg, 11.1 apg, 1.8 spg on 49.8 FG%.

Impressive numbers

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This won't even be a conversation a decade from now when we'll no longer be calling Goran Dragic "White Magic" and we'll be calling Magic Johnson "Black Goran".

[lefty]

I barely remember KJ. Pre-injury KJ was way before my time.

The only reason I say Adams had a better Suns career was cause the stats make a pretty indisputable case. I didn't watch nearly enough of either one to be able to judge based on that.

KJ post-injury; not bad at all; ask Hakeem Olajuwon

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

KJ post-injury; not bad at all; ask Hakeem Olajuwon

I've seen that

[lefty]

Is this vs Real Madrid ? (I think I can see Sabonis)

[Gino]

Barkley was with the Suns 3+ seasons and shot his way out of town. He's not a long-tenured player, and while he was the most talented and most significant player in the Suns history, as a long-time Suns fan I appreciate long-time players. KJ killed himself for the team. He's by far their best player for a player's career with the Suns. If you couldn't see the implications my initial post made, then I apologize for not being clear. I think it was pretty well stated.

Barkley = most talented/significant rent-a-player in Suns history
Johnson = best career Suns player.

Fair enough.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

KJ could really get up. I've met the guy and I'm not sure if he's 6'1" with Timberlands on.

[JMarkJohns]

Impressive numbers

He has a 2.89/1 assist/turnover ratio for his career and over that four-year prime it was 3.16.

KJ's career A/TO ratio is identical to Magic Johnson's, better than Gary Payton's, Tim Hardaway's, Jason Kidd's, Mark Price's and Isiah Thomas'.

Only significant PG of the 80's/90's with a better A/TO ratio was Stockton.

[Gino]

I barely remember KJ. Pre-injury KJ was way before my time.

The only reason I say Adams had a better Suns career was cause the stats make a pretty indisputable case. I didn't watch nearly enough of either one to be able to judge based on that.

LOL..."Pre-injury KJ" was way before your time but you think the best Sun ever was Alvan Adams?

[ShoogarBear]

Alvan Adams basically was a guy who played a lot of years. Other than being Rookie of the Year, he was never ever in anyone's discussion of the top players of the time, and his rookie year was by far his best year. I don't think he ever came within sniffing distance of an All-Star game.

The best comparison to KG was the early, pre-Daly Isaiah Thomas, although KJ was much more athletic (ask Hakeem). Those guys just pretty much did whatever they wanted on offense, they could run the team or score equally well.

Chris Paul is probably the closet thing to them, although I think of Paul as a playmaker who can score than a guy who might go for 40 on you on any given night.

[ShoogarBear]

Damn, somebody beat me to Hakeem.