Free Agent: Marcin Gortat

[024]

gortat for $3-4 would be a good deal. i noticed that the magic are already paying $6 million for a backup center in battie and will have to worry about turkoglu if he opts out. magic also have to worry about their long term cap space. his athelticism, defense, and rebounding are more what the spurs need next to duncan.

anything more would be a gamble. i don't think he will develop much offense.

[Bruno]

The main problem of Gortat is that there isn't a lot of skills in his body. Paying $5M per year for a player that limited isn't a good idea.

[EricB]

I would offer 3 million, anything over that, is over paying.

[benefactor]

The main problem of Gortat is that there isn't a lot of skills in his body. Paying $5M per year for a player that limited isn't a good idea.

There have been some flashes of what he can do offensively, but as I said before, the Magic just choose to go to their other offensive weapons when he is in the game.

I also find it strange that it is acceptable to pay a player who is good on offense but is limited on defense yet when the roles are reversed it is deemed unacceptable. Considering what Drew Gooden was making before he came to the Spurs, I don't see anything wrong with paying 5 million a year to a player that can give such an immediate impact on our interior defense and rebounding. True mobile bigs are simply not going to come any cheaper.

[HarlemHeat37]

it doesn't matter if you guys think that's overpaying him..whether he deserves that amount of $ or not, somebody is going to give it to him..

[Blackjack]

it doesn't matter if you guys think that's overpaying him..whether he deserves that amount of $ or not, somebody is going to give it to him..

+1

He's a solid rotation big, and that in itself, usually warrants more than 3 million.

If you think he's an upgrade over Bonner and Oberto, I don't know how you can expect for him to be payed the same or less than them.

[yavozerb]

it doesn't matter if you guys think that's overpaying him..whether he deserves that amount of $ or not, somebody is going to give it to him..

I would rather it not be the spurs...

[objective]

The more I think about it the more I think he's going to be out of the Spurs price range.

He's no secret, he's not under the radar. He gets talked up constantly on the ABC radio broadcasts, he's playing in high profile games in high profile series. Every team board out there knows about him, there's general nba-talk threads about him everywhere.

I get the feeling he might get signed by a team under the cap to a deal exceeding the MLE, average of 7 or 8. He could get signed by OKC. He could be signed by Detroit to pair with Boozer/Milsapp, they have enough money. It's a replay of Okur, back-up big on a team in the finals, gets greater than MLE contract.

[Bruno]

I also find it strange that it is acceptable to pay a player who is good on offense but is limited on defense yet when the roles are reversed it is deemed unacceptable. Considering what Drew Gooden was making before he came to the Spurs, I don't see anything wrong with paying 5 million a year to a player that can give such an immediate impact on our interior defense and rebounding. True mobile bigs are simply not going to come any cheaper.

Well, I'm also against giving the full MLE for a player like Gooden.

[benefactor]

Well, I'm also against giving the full MLE for a player like Gooden.

You are going to have a hard time finding bigs then. You have to at least agree he is worth more than Bonner...who made almost 3 million last season and will make 3.2 million this season.

I think a good comparison is Joel Przybilla. His game is similar to Gortat, where he is pretty limited offensively but is a great defender and rebounder. His contract will paid him 6.3 million this year and will pay him 6.8 million next year. Furthermore, you also have Darko Milicic making 7 million and 7.5 million between last season and this season. Even Anderson Varejao made 5.7 million last year.

All of these players have similar games to Gortat(I actually think he is much better that Darko or Varejao) and they all are making more than the MLE. The market for these types of players is what it is for a reason...they bring the intangibles needed that define championship teams. Championships are won with defense and on the glass. Scoring gets you what it has gotten the Suns over the last decade.

[Bruno]

You are going to have a hard time finding bigs then. You have to at least agree he is worth more than Bonner...who made almost 3 million last season and will make 3.2 million this season.

Using hindsight isn't fair to judge contracts.
We can also say Gortat is worth more than Kenny Thomas, whose next year salary is $8.8M.

And it isn't only a question of yearly salary, it is also the length of the contract. If Spurs have to give a full MLE contract ($33M over 5 years) to get him, I don't think they should do it.
Even if Gortat has been good in limited minutes with Orlando, it's far from sure than he can be as good in a bigger role for Spurs.

The max contract I would give to Gortat is $12M/3 years. If Spurs takes the 2010 plan road, I wouldn't offer him a contact.

[benefactor]

The more I think about it the more I think he's going to be out of the Spurs price range.

He's no secret, he's not under the radar. He gets talked up constantly on the ABC radio broadcasts, he's playing in high profile games in high profile series. Every team board out there knows about him, there's general nba-talk threads about him everywhere.

I get the feeling he might get signed by a team under the cap to a deal exceeding the MLE, average of 7 or 8. He could get signed by OKC. He could be signed by Detroit to pair with Boozer/Milsapp, they have enough money. It's a replay of Okur, back-up big on a team in the finals, gets greater than MLE contract.

The catch here is that you might have a lot of teams that will be reluctant to spend their MLE this summer because they are not willing to cut into their 2010 cap space. I have been of the opinion from the beginning that we will probably not be luring a big name in 2010 and we will be left signing solid role players. I would gladly take this as one of those signings.

[benefactor]

Using hindsight isn't fair to judge contracts.
We can also say Gortat is worth more than Kenny Thomas, whose next year salary is $8.8M.

And it isn't only a question of yearly salary, it is also the length of the contract. If Spurs have to give a full MLE contract ($33M over 5 years) to get him, I don't think they should do it.
Even if Gortat has been good in limited minutes with Orlando, it's far from sure than he can be as good in a bigger role for Spurs.

The max contract I would give to Gortat is $12M/3 years. If Spurs takes the 2010 plan road, I wouldn't offer him a contact.

5yrs/33 million might bit a little steep...we can agree there. That's actually a little over the MLE, isn't it(6.6 million a year)?

I would probably go something in the middle. Maybe 4 years/22-23 million.

[Bruno]

I think a good comparison is Joel Przybilla. His game is similar to Gortat, where he is pretty limited offensively but is a great defender and rebounder. His contract will paid him 6.3 million this year and will pay him 6.8 million next year. Furthermore, you also have Darko Milicic making 7 million and 7.5 million between last season and this season. Even Anderson Varejao made 5.7 million last year.

Przybilla: averaged 6.1 pts and 7 rbds before he got his contract.
Varejao: averaged 6.8 pts and 6.7 rbds before he got his contract.
Milicic: averaged 8.0 pts and 5.5 rbds before he got his contract.

Gortat: averaged 3.8 pts and 4.6 rbds this year

All of these players have similar games to Gortat(I actually think he is much better that Darko or Varejao) and they all are making more than the MLE. The market for these types of players is what it is for a reason...they bring the intangibles needed that define championship teams. Championships are won with defense and on the glass. Scoring gets you what it has gotten the Suns over the last decade.

Sorry but that's some serious BS.
It's not because defense win championship that you can give a big contract to Gortat.
Since players like Gortat "bring the intangibles needed that define championship teams", who was the last player in the Gortat mold to be a big part of a championship team ?

[Bruno]

5yrs/33 million might bit a little steep...we can agree there. That's actually a little over the MLE, isn't it(6.6 million a year)?

$33M/ 5 years is a full MLE contract with max raises.

[TDMVPDPOY]

this is as stupid as paying rasho what he got from us...NO.

[benefactor]

Przybilla: averaged 6.1 pts and 7 rbds before he got his contract.
Varejao: averaged 6.8 pts and 6.7 rbds before he got his contract.
Milicic: averaged 8.0 pts and 5.5 rbds before he got his contract.

Gortat: averaged 3.8 pts and 4.6 rbds this year

Both Darko and Varejao played 24 MPG in those seasons. Przybilla played 25. Gortat only played 12.6 MPG...so if you increased his minutes to the level that those other players played you see similar numbers.

Sorry but that's some serious BS.
It's not because defense win championship that you can give a big contract to Gortat.
Since players like Gortat "bring the intangibles needed that define championship teams", who was the last player in the Gortat mold to be a big part of a championship team ?

I think you are missing my point here. It's more about certain things a team needs to win a championship. The man who has been protecting the paint for us for the last decade is getting old. This part of his game is a big reason we have the trophies we have. As you can see by the Lakers, teams that rebound are also championship contenders. We can no longer rely on Timmy to do all the work on the boards. If you stare down our front line you see Bonner, Thomas, Oberto and Mahinmi. Two players who completely suck at rebounding, one who is long in the tooth and another who is completely unproven.

Duncan in the past has given us the things in both rebounding and on defense that has fueled our success. That time is passing quickly...and it's time to bring in players that can take up the slack.

[angelbelow]

3 mill is max.

[benefactor]

You have to pay him more than 3 million people. That is Bonner money...and he is a significant upgrade.

[Bruno]

Both Darko and Varejao played 24 MPG in those seasons. Przybilla played 25. Gortat only played 12.6 MPG...so if you increased his minutes to the level that those other players played you see similar numbers.

Not automatically and that was my poiut.

I think you are missing my point here. It's more about certain things a team needs to win a championship. The man who has been protecting the paint for us for the last decade is getting old. This part of his game is a big reason we have the trophies we have. As you can see by the Lakers, teams that rebound are also championship contenders. We can no longer rely on Timmy to do all the work on the boards. If you stare down our front line you see Bonner, Thomas, Oberto and Mahinmi. Two players who completely suck at rebounding, one who is long in the tooth and another who is completely unproven.

Duncan in the past has given us the things in both rebounding and on defense that has fueled our success. That time is passing quickly...and it's time to bring in players that can take up the slack.

First, the whole rebounding issue is a false problem. Spurs were this year the best defensive rebounding team in the history of the NBA. They also were the worst offensive rebounding team of the NBA but a big part of that is by design. Spurs were focused on transition D more than getting offensive rebounds and they played with a PF stretching the floor on the offensive end.

Second, Duncan is aging but one of the biggest sign of this aging process is that he lost some mobility. Most of the NBA teams played with a paint big and a perimeter big who is quite mobile. If you want to have Gortat holding the fort, you had to put him on the paint big which means Duncan will be matched against quick perimeter oriented bigmen. I'm quite skeptical about the success of this plan.

[benefactor]

Not automatically and that was my poiut.

Perhaps not...but considering his role in Orlando and the system there and the minutes/role he would play here I think that those numbers would be easily attainable.

First, the whole rebounding issue is a false problem. Spurs were this year the best defensive rebounding team in the history of the NBA. They also were the worst offensive rebounding team of the NBA but a big part of that is by design. Spurs were focused on transition D more than getting offensive rebounds and they played with a PF stretching the floor on the offensive end.

I hear this argument a lot...and I think it's fools gold to a certain extent. Yes, we were top 5 in total defensive rebounds lead the league in defensive rebounding percentage. This is a testament to coaching, as all positions on the Spurs are expected to help on the boards. But if you look at total rebounds, we pulled down 3366...good enough to barely crack the top 20 and is 20 boards below the league average. We are also right near the bottom in blocked shots. There is also the playoff factor. Having rebounding on the front line becomes more critical in a 7 game series. If you look at the rebounding totals during the season in the losses we took to LA and Portland, it becomes unsettling to think that we could match up with either over 7 games.

Do I think the acquisition of Gortat will solve all of this? Of course not. But more boards and more blocks can only come with upgrades at C/PF/SF. This is just one new link in our very worn out chain.

Second, Duncan is aging but one of the biggest sign of this aging process is that he lost some mobility. Most of the NBA teams played with a paint big and a perimeter big who is quite mobile. If you want to have Gortat holding the fort, you had to put him on the paint big which means Duncan will be matched against quick perimeter oriented bigmen. I'm quite skeptical about the success of this plan.

I am not so sure about that. He has very good lateral quickness for a man his size. I think he would do fine against players like Gasol and Aldridge on the perimeter. He and Duncan could likely be interchangeable depending on the situation. Now if we start talking about the longer SF/PF tweener players then that is a different story. That will likely require a player in the Gist mold. Hopefully he can help some next season, because if he can't then there is a strong likelihood that those types of player are still going to give us a lot of problems.

As I said above, I don't see Gortat as the complete answer to all our defensive/rebounding/shot blocking issues...but I think he could be a very nice step in the right direction. We will just have to agree to disagree on what his worth is from a salary perspective. I tend to agree with HarlemHeat37...it is probably more about what will be required financially to obtain a player like him over what we think he is actually worth.

[SenorSpur]

First, the whole rebounding issue is a false problem. Spurs were this year the best defensive rebounding team in the history of the NBA. They also were the worst offensive rebounding team of the NBA but a big part of that is by design. Spurs were focused on transition D more than getting offensive rebounds and they played with a PF stretching the floor on the offensive end.

That is a regular season stat and, I'm sorry, that doesn't mean a lot come playoff time. Sometimes, you have to gauge by what you see. And I remember distinctly how the Spurs were badly outrebounded the past two seasons, in the playoffs, by the Fakers in'08, and more recently by the Mavs in '09. A big problem with the Spurs is they routinely give up too many offensive rebound opportunities against superior-level teams. This is further compounded by the fact that the Spurs, as a team, are very poor at blocking out - Finley is notorious for this.

Second, Duncan is aging but one of the biggest sign of this aging process is that he lost some mobility. Most of the NBA teams played with a paint big and a perimeter big who is quite mobile. If you want to have Gortat holding the fort, you had to put him on the paint big which means Duncan will be matched against quick perimeter oriented bigmen. I'm quite skeptical about the success of this plan.

Duncan has been the center of the Spurs rebounding universe for some time, and it's obvious he's lost some mobility. No disputing that. The problem is the Spurs have relied on him for so long, and yet there has not been much frontline support for him as his mobility has declined. In fact, he's not had a consistent running mate since D-Rob retired. While Manu and Bowen have shown capabilities in the rebounding area, it hasn't been enough. Give me another big who can maintain his defenisve positioning and has a penchant for both rebounding at a good clip and low-post defense, and that will shore up a uva lot. Ian has promise, but is unproven. Gortat is "getting it done" in a reserve role, for a championship-caliber club. From what I've seen so far, I'd be willing to take my chances on him. Unless of course, they decide they want to go another round with Gooden.

[Bruno]

That is a regular season stat and, I'm sorry, that doesn't mean a lot come playoff time. Sometimes, you have to gauge by what you see. And I remember distinctly how the Spurs were badly outrebounded the past two seasons, in the playoffs, by the Fakers in'08, and more recently by the Mavs in '09. A big problem with the Spurs is they routinely give up too many offensive rebound opportunities against superior-level teams. This is further compounded by the fact that the Spurs, as a team, are very poor at blocking out - Finley is notorious for this.

Sometimes, you have to gauge by numbers, because unlike what you see they are objective.

Against Lakers in 08': Lakers grab 41 offensive rebounds, Spurs grab 158 defensive rebounds. That is to say a 20.6% defensive rebounding percentage.
Against Mavs in 09': Mavs grab 44 offensive rebounds, Spurs grab 144 defensive rebounds. That is to say a 23.4% defensive rebounding percentage.

Spurs did a great job at limiting offensive rebounds in these series.

From what I've seen so far, I'd be willing to take my chances on him. Unless of course, they decide they want to go another round with Gooden.

I guess almost everybody is willing to take his chance on him but it's a matter of how much should Spurs spend on him.
I don't think Spurs should throw a lot of money to try to get him. If Gortat market value is above $12M/3 years, I rather see Spurs trying to get someone else.

[Bruno]

I hear this argument a lot...and I think it's fools gold to a certain extent. Yes, we were top 5 in total defensive rebounds lead the league in defensive rebounding percentage. This is a testament to coaching, as all positions on the Spurs are expected to help on the boards. But if you look at total rebounds, we pulled down 3366...good enough to barely crack the top 20 and is 20 boards below the league average.

I find that looking at combined (offensive+ defensive) rebounding numbers is quite uninteresting. These are two distinct parts of the game with no true link between them.

[benefactor]

Sometimes, you have to gauge by numbers, because unlike what you see they are objective.

Against Lakers in 08': Lakers grab 41 offensive rebounds, Spurs grab 158 defensive rebounds. That is to say a 20.6% defensive rebounding
percentage.

Against Mavs in 09': Mavs grab 44 offensive rebounds, Spurs grab 144 defensive rebounds. That is to say a 23.4% defensive rebounding percentage.

Spurs did a great job at limiting offensive rebounds in these series.

Here's is some objective numbers for you...in three out of the four losses in the Lakers series the Spurs were out rebounded 132-112. They were outdone on the defensive boards 105-89.

Same song and dance in the Mavericks series. In the final three losses they out rebounded the Spurs 140-109. Defensive boards? 111-86.

31 ing rebounds...that just pisses me off looking at it. I've have tons of respect for you Bruno, but there isn't a percentage in the world you can throw out there to make that look good.

I guess almost everybody is willing to take his chance on him but it's a matter of how much should Spurs spend on him.
I don't think Spurs should throw a lot of money to try to get him. If Gortat market value is above $12M/3 years, I rather see Spurs trying to get someone else.

Therein lies the problem...there isn't much else out there. The Spurs can sit around for as long as they want trying to wait for a decent big to come around so they can convince him to play for 4 million a year but in today's NBA that is not realistic. The window is closing. Pay the players that will help now or just let it close.