tim duncan's legacy

[samikeyp]

When Russell came into the league, it was before the baby boom, blacks were not fully integrated into the league, and there were no international compe ion.

The talent level of the NBA did not approach modern standards until about 1970, and even then it was diluted by the ABA.

For the available talent at the time, it was much deeper than it is now. Alot of bench warmers wouldn't be here if it weren't for so many teams. That is also a big reason why the draft was pared down to two rounds, the talent pool didn't warrant having 7+ rounds.


As far as Duncan's legacy goes, even if he stopped playing right now, he has cemented himself as one of the best ever. Where doesn't matter, he has accomplished the highest honors of his profession. The only one left is the HOF which is a lock.

[Galileo]

Duncan defeated 116 teams?


Which goes back to my point about the talent pool. The number of teams doesn't make it tougher when more than half those teams are weaker. One thing that Duncan has had to do which makes it tougher is longer seasons and post seasons.

It may dilute talent on other teams, but it also dilutes talent on your own team.

Russell had TEN Hall-of-Fame teammates (I missed one on the other post)

Cousy (7 seasons)
Bill Sharman (5 seasons)
Andy Philip (2 seasons)
Frank Ramsey (8 seasons)
Havlicek (7 seasons)
Sam Jones (10 seasons)
Tom Heinsohn (9 seasons)
Bailey Howell (3 seasons)
KC Jones (9 seasons)
Clyde Lovellette (2 seasons)

+ a hall-of-fame coach

Duncan

DRob for 6 seasons

Russell had 62 HoF seasons from teammates, and average of about 5 per season, not counting Russell himself. So Russell's average team had 6 hall-of-famers. That means even Russell's sixth man was a hall-of famer.

Russell also won 10 out of 10 game 7's in the playoffs. The fact is, had he lost any of these his amazing total les total would be lower by one for each loss. All but one of the games were close.

Yes, Russell was a clutch player, but he was very lucky to win 9 out of 9 close game sevens.

[samikeyp]

It may dilute talent on other teams, but it also dilutes talent on your own team.

Russell had TEN Hall-of-Fame teammates (I missed one on the other post)

Cousy (7 seasons)
Bill Sharman (5 seasons)
Andy Philip (2 seasons)
Frank Ramsey (8 seasons)
Havlicek (7 seasons)
Sam Jones (10 seasons)
Tom Heinsohn (9 seasons)
Bailey Howell (3 seasons)
KC Jones (9 seasons)
Clyde Lovellette (2 seasons)

+ a hall-of-fame coach

Duncan

DRob for 6 seasons

Russell had 62 HoF seasons from teammates, and average of about 5 per season, not counting Russell himself. So Russell's average team had 6 hall-of-famers. That means even Russell's sixth man was a hall-of famer.

Russell also won 10 out of 10 game 7's in the playoffs. The fact is, had he lost any of these his amazing total les total would be lower by one for each loss. All but one of the games were close.

Yes, Russell was a clutch player, but he was very lucky to win 9 out of 9 close game sevens.

or he was good.

[Galileo]

or he was good.

He was very good, but in at least one game 7, he was almost the goat, as he threw a pass of the backboard and caused a key turnover.

He had the best teammates in NBA history.

[samikeyp]

He was very good, but in at least one game 7, he was almost the goat, as he threw a pass of the backboard and caused a key turnover.

He had the best teammates in NBA history.

Doesn't take away from his greatness.

[Galileo]

Doesn't take away from his greatness.

We are talking about whether he is as good as Duncan and rating their accomplishments.

[samikeyp]

We are talking about whether he is as good as Duncan and rating their accomplishments.

Right. We are talking about the player, not the team.

[Galileo]

Right. We are talking about the player, not the team.

That's right.

Duncan, with lesser teammates, defeated more teams to win his championships.

[samikeyp]

That's right.

Duncan, with lesser teammates, defeated more teams to win his championships.

If we are talking about the player and not the team, then teammates are irrelevant.

Still, I stand by my statement, I don't think at this point Duncan is better than Russell but the gap is very small and Timmy still has plenty of time.

[Galileo]

If we are talking about the player and not the team, then teammates are irrelevant.

Still, I stand by my statement, I don't think at this point Duncan is better than Russell but the gap is very small and Timmy still has plenty of time.

Russell is ahead by one point under my system.

[Leetonidas]

How anyone can think the talent pool back then was better then it is now is beyond me. Wilt and Russel succeeded in an era where they were the few of their kind...very tall and very athletic, in a league dominated by short white players. There's no doubt in my mind that if you put Duncan on those Celtic teams in place of Russel that they would be AT LEAST the same, more likely better though.

[samikeyp]

How anyone can think the talent pool back then was better then it is now is beyond me. Wilt and Russel succeeded in an era where they were the few of their kind...very tall and very athletic, in a league dominated by short white players. There's no doubt in my mind that if you put Duncan on those Celtic teams in place of Russel that they would be AT LEAST the same, more likely better though.

I didn't say the talent pool was better back when Russell played as opposed to today. I am saying the available talent was more concentrated on each team due to the fact of there being less teams. Not all players now could succeed then but IMO even less players then could succeed now. There are some players, however,who could be good in any era, Russell and Duncan are two of those players.

[raspsa]

I think Wilt knew how to be a good teammate, he just did what he had to to make his team the best it could be. He followed up his 50 ppg season by leading the league in assists the next year.

Wilt was a bona fide freak of nature. I wonder what really motivated him to go after the assists record? IMO it was to add yet another record to his personal resume. I'm not downplaying his achievements w/c are fantastic. He showed he could be a terrific assists guy, that he could rebound, score, etc.. but could he put all his talents/skills together CONSISTENTLY playing team ball, season after season.. unfortunately the answer is no, he couldn't.. if he did, he would be untouchable at the top .. not even MJ could touch him.
Now, put Russell's mind in Wilt\s body then you have the T800 of all basketball players.

[Thomas82]

actually someone on bspn said that timmy is the only one of the three who is the best ever at his position. He said that kobe and shaq were all time greats, but not the best at their positions like timmy is.

So if you look at it from a position view, then timmy is top 5 which is amazing. I am going to cry like a baby when he retires.

+1

[Chieflion]

Wilt was a bona fide freak of nature. I wonder what really motivated him to go after the assists record? IMO it was to add yet another record to his personal resume. I'm not downplaying his achievements w/c are fantastic. He showed he could be a terrific assists guy, that he could rebound, score, etc.. but could he put all his talents/skills together CONSISTENTLY playing team ball, season after season.. unfortunately the answer is no, he couldn't.. if he did, he would be untouchable at the top .. not even MJ could touch him.
Now, put Russell's mind in Wilt\s body then you have the T800 of all basketball players.

Wilt went after the assists cause the media said he can only score.

[TDMVPDPOY]

How anyone can think the talent pool back then was better then it is now is beyond me. Wilt and Russel succeeded in an era where they were the few of their kind...very tall and very athletic, in a league dominated by short white players. There's no doubt in my mind that if you put Duncan on those Celtic teams in place of Russel that they would be AT LEAST the same, more likely better though.

the difference in eras, russell and stuff played on teams stacked with good players and one less round in the playoffs...

while todays league the talent is evenly spread out around the league to all teams, where you have at least 1-3 good players on each team while the rest are fkn scrubs.

[dbreiden83080]

Greatest PF of all time and top 10 player ever...

I'm 28 and in my lifetime the only player i ever saw better than Timmy, in their prime was Jordan.. Yes i'm saying he's better than Hakeem.. Just my opinion..

[Thomas82]

Greatest PF of all time and top 10 player ever...

I'm 28 and in my lifetime the only player i ever saw better than Timmy, in their prime was Jordan.. Yes i'm saying he's better than Hakeem.. Just my opinion..

And that's an opinion that I'll share with you, and I'm a year older than you.

[samikeyp]

And that's an opinion that I'll share with you, and I'm a year older than you.

and I am 10 years older than you...and I agree as well.

[Thomas82]

and I am 10 years older than you...and I agree as well.

You can even make a case for him being in the top 5, considering that he is the best ever at his position.

[samikeyp]

You can even make a case for him being in the top 5, considering that he is the best ever at his position.

I could see that...although I would do that after his career because I don't think he is done with his accomplishments.

In the last 25 years we have seen the power forward position redefined 4 times, McHale, Barkley, Malone and now Duncan. Good stuff.

[polandprzem]

And that's an opinion that I'll share with you, and I'm a year older than you.

I'm about your ages and I do agree as well

[FromWayDowntown]

I don't think there's an empirical formula to prove what I think -- no matter how much Galileo wants to pretend that there can be. And I don't think it's just about talent or flash or publicity or highlights -- results must matter. Hence, I think Russell is firmly entrenched in the pantheon of greats, no matter who his teammates were and no matter what the compe ion level was. Russell's teammates changed through the years, but his team's results did not, which strikes me as a testament to Russell's greatness. They beat all comers during Russell's reign and that's all they could have done.

As to Mr. Duncan: Timmy is surely the most accomplished pro of this generation (really post-Jordan). And other than Jordan or Magic, I consider him the most accomplished pro since the merger. He's been the unquestioned focal point and crucial player on 4- le winners, while bringing home 2 MVPs, 12 All-NBA's (9 First Teams), and 12 All-Defenses (8 First Teams; and having been royally screwed out of one or more DPOYs along the way).

Shaq has as many les, but less of the ancillary accolades. He was First Team All-NBA 8 times, but was Third Team All-NBA another 4 times; Duncan has never been anything other than First or Second Team. Shaq only made 3 All-Defense teams (and never First Team). He has only one MVP (though that's unfair). But, more than anything, I think he's eclipsed by Duncan because he was clearly not the alpha male on his last le team.

Bird has more of the ancillary accolades (more MVPs, an equal number of First Team All-League nods), but he likewise was rarely named to an All-Defense team and was never named to an All-Defense First Team. Moreover, Bird does not have as many rings as Timmy.

I'd also argue, though, that hardware aside, Timmy's greatness should get a bump because of what he won with. The latter days of David Robinson's career weren't what made him a Hall of Famer; David was a very good player when the Spurs started winning les and was much more of a role player when they won in 2003. Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are All-Star caliber talents, but not all-time greats. Timmy won repeatedly with those guys by his side. I don't think anyone would agree that latter-Dave, Manu or Tony is the basketball equivalent of Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Robert Parish, or Kevin McHale. Shaq and Bird, in winning les, had historically better sidekicks than Duncan did in winning his. I thnk the world of Tony and Manu (and Dave, of course), but in le runs, those guys were (at best) marginal All-Stars. Kobe, Wade, Parish, McHale weren't merely All-Stars; those guys were making First and Second Team All-NBA during the heydays of Bird and Shaq.

In the years of the Spurs 4 le runs, Duncan didn't have a single teammate who made an All-NBA team. Bowen made 3 All-Defense teams during those runs; Ginobili made an All-Star team in 2005. Other than that, those Spurs teams only accolades were Duncan's All-NBA, All-Defense, and All-Star nods (and his MVPs).

By contrast, in Shaq's 4 le runs, Kobe was 2nd team twice and 1st team once, and Wade was 2nd team.

It's all subjective. And my point of view is decidedly skewed in favor of Spurs and particularly Tim Duncan. But I think there's plenty of reasonable argument to put Tim above Bird and Shaq, which necessarily puts Tim into the elite of the elite of the elite and among the 7 or so best players in the history of the game.

[doobs]

I could see that...although I would do that after his career because I don't think he is done with his accomplishments.

In the last 25 years we have seen the power forward position redefined 4 times, McHale, Barkley, Malone and now Duncan. Good stuff.

Not sure about that.

- Barkley did not redefine the position. He was a once-in-a-lifetime talent, and there really haven't been any 6'4'' power forwards since. He was an anomaly.

- Malone did more to redefine the position, in that he developed a reliable outside shot and became a truly versatile first-scoring option.

- McHale did a lot to improve upon the position. He was polished. His post moves were amazing. McHale was the forerunner to Olajuwon and Duncan, two of the greatest post players in NBA history. (Yes, I realize Olajuwon was technically a center.)

- Duncan's game is a combination of McHale, Olajuwon, and Russell. He is the best power forward of all time. I'm not sure he's redefined the position, except to the extent that he has completely blurred the line between power forward and center.

- Frankly, I think guys like Nowitzki and Garnett have done more to redefine the position than Duncan.

[samikeyp]

I'm not sure he's redefined the position, except to the extent that he has completely blurred the line between power forward and center.

Which would be a redefinition of the postion.

Frankly, I think guys like Nowitzki and Garnett have done more to redefine the position than Duncan.

Garnett has had a similar impact as Duncan but not to the extent that Duncan has, IMO.

Dirk..maybe offensively but that's it, he doesn't bring the defensive skills that KG or TD do.