Obama's Dukakis moment

[DarrinS]

Do you think people with NO health care are going to about long lines?

Of course not. They will be the cause of the long lines.

[ChumpDumper]

Compe ion - that's ALL govt. run health care is going to be, right - just to "keep the insurance companies honest" - because, apparently competing with each other doesn't do so? Then, shouldn't government have a player in every major industry (oops, looks like that's what's happening - nevermind).

Anyway, since this is a basketball board, why don't we try this analogy -

It's bad playing the Lakers in the playoff, we can all agree, they often get many favorable, even questionable calls that go there way. Some have argued that the Lakers have an unfair advantage - it's not true compe ion.

That is NOT what it would be like if the Obama scenario comes to pass -

ONLY if David Stern along with Joey Crawford, Bavetta and the rest of the officials ACTUALLY owned the Lakers would the analogy be appropriate.

Ah, Laker conspiracy theories explain everything.

[LnGrrrR]

So, you actually, BELIEVE what people promise in terms of what a govt. program is going to do/be/become? I get it. You might what to go back to 1962 - '64 and SEE what "they" were saying Medicare/Medicaid would NEVER become, or how expensive they would be. It's enlightening.

What Obama/Congress creates - future administrations will grow and make more onerous. Social Security, after all, began as a voluntary, 1% tax.

15% AND mandatory (and doomed to bankruptcy even at THAT) - you would have been called a bomb thrower, a reactionary, a right wing fear monger; but that is exactly where we are (and it's gonna get worse).

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice - well, call me a liberal.

Well, I'm only 27. I was negative 19 years old in 62...

Sorry I'm not haunted by the ghosts of liberal past, but I'm willing to give this a shot, and if it sucks, then call it out.

[sam1617]

They, and we, already do. I prefer to do away with the s game currently being played with health care costs, but I understand people like to pretend.

I'm not saying the current system is good. I just don't think nationalized health care is better, and most likely worse.

[SonOfAGun]

Decreasing the quality and availability of my or my family's health care is not nice. This is as serious an infraction as you can get. Government better think twice before going down this road.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not saying the current system is good. I just don't think nationalized health care is better, and most likely worse.

So keep your private coverage.

[LnGrrrR]

Of course not. They will be the cause of the long lines.

Of course. But my point is, conservatives are never going to get anywhere with either of these two arguments:

1) The lines will be long! = Poor people don't care if lines are long, because they don't have health care now.

2) The rich have to pay for the poor = Poor people don't care if rich people have to pay for it.

The only way conservatives win this fight is if they convince the middle class that it's against the best interest.

It just annoys me to see people throw out the above 2 arguments, and think they're going to convince any people that aren't already on their side.

The only decent argument is the one about growing the government. You might convince enough voters that "extra taxes = bad!"

Even if, as ChumpDumper already said, these taxes are already coming out in the form of their insurance premiums when hospitals have to overcharge to make up for those who have no health insurance.

I guess you could also argue that hospitals should just turn away poor people or those with no insurance at the door.

[LnGrrrR]

Please show me where the majority want the health care plan proposed ....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2528357.shtml

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/01/wa...1cnd-poll.html

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/livin...1020_poll.html

http://www.usnews.com/articles/opini...mmigrants.html

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...-mentioned.php

http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/pol...007-06-28.html

[DarrinS]

Govt run enterprises work the best. Take education for example. Oh, wait.

[pkbpkb81]

I don’t want obamacare but if my company drops the plain we have than I will have no choice and that is the problem.

[sam1617]

So keep your private coverage.

I will still end up paying for government health care. Kinda like earlier mentioned where Social Security was intended to be voluntary. As soon as the Gov't realizes that they can't pay for their precious programs, they will do waht they have always done, and its not decrease spending... They are going to tax us more... And so I'm going to be stuck paying my private coverage, and your ty gov't health care, until it gets to expensive, then I'm going to have to drop the private becuase I can't afford it, leaving me screwed with the crappy gov't health care...

[LnGrrrR]

Govt run enterprises work the best. Take education for example. Oh, wait.

If there were no public schools available, I'm guessing most people would want to change that as well.

Edit: Thanks for giving another example where a government run program did not make obsolete private practices!

[coyotes_geek]

I will still end up paying for government health care. Kinda like earlier mentioned where Social Security was intended to be voluntary. As soon as the Gov't realizes that they can't pay for their precious programs, they will do waht they have always done, and its not decrease spending... They are going to tax us more... And so I'm going to be stuck paying my private coverage, and your ty gov't health care, until it gets to expensive, then I'm going to have to drop the private becuase I can't afford it, leaving me screwed with the crappy gov't health care...

Bingo. The current plan sucks, but there are exactly zero reasons to believe the government can make it better. The governments track record is well established. They're completely incapable of managing large scale programs efficiently.

[LnGrrrR]

I will still end up paying for government health care. Kinda like earlier mentioned where Social Security was intended to be voluntary. As soon as the Gov't realizes that they can't pay for their precious programs, they will do waht they have always done, and its not decrease spending... They are going to tax us more... And so I'm going to be stuck paying my private coverage, and your ty gov't health care, until it gets to expensive, then I'm going to have to drop the private becuase I can't afford it, leaving me screwed with the crappy gov't health care...

This is the best argument conservatives have. The biggest problem? The negatives don't take place until after the fact. Do you think people without coverage care that it will cost them more taxes 10, 20 or 30 years from now?

[DarrinS]

If there were no public schools available, I'm guessing most people would want to change that as well.

Edit: Thanks for giving another example where a government run program did not make obsolete private practices!

What kind of school do Obama's kids attend?

[ChumpDumper]

I will still end up paying for government health care. Kinda like earlier mentioned where Social Security was intended to be voluntary. As soon as the Gov't realizes that they can't pay for their precious programs, they will do waht they have always done, and its not decrease spending... They are going to tax us more... And so I'm going to be stuck paying my private coverage, and your ty gov't health care, until it gets to expensive, then I'm going to have to drop the private becuase I can't afford it, leaving me screwed with the crappy gov't health care...

Are your health care costs going down because of market forces and compe ion?

Are you expecting them to go down if a government program is not established?

[ChumpDumper]

What kind of school do Obama's kids attend?

Thanks for unwittingly proving his point.

[sam1617]

This is the best argument conservatives have. The biggest problem? The negatives don't take place until after the fact. Do you think people without coverage care that it will cost them more taxes 10, 20 or 30 years from now?

So, basically, even though most everyone knows its going to be a bad plan 30 years down the line, poli- ing-ticians are going to do this anyways because they love power and know that the idiots who voted for them aren't smart enough to think longterm. Does that really make sense?

[DarrinS]

Thanks for unwittingly proving his point.

Which one? That it will lower the quality of care? Or that you'll have to pay through the nose to get the best?

[sam1617]

Are your health care costs going down because of market forces and compe ion?

Are you expecting them to go down if a government program is not established?

You are saying that we should scrap the old way because it costs too much, then replace it with a new way that will result in me paying more. Why does that make sense?

[101A]

Well, I'm only 27. I was negative 19 years old in 62...

Sorry I'm not haunted by the ghosts of liberal past, but I'm willing to give this a shot, and if it sucks, then call it out.

You don't give govt. programs a "shot". They never die. You bought it, you own it; FOREVER.

[ChumpDumper]

Which one? That it will lower the quality of care? Or that you'll have to pay through the nose to get the best?

That public options do not necessarily eliminate public ones.

Do you have trouble remembering your own posts?

[ChumpDumper]

You are saying that we should scrap the old way because it costs too much, then replace it with a new way that will result in me paying more. Why does that make sense?

Will you end up paying more?

Let me know what you personally are paying now and what you will pay if the plan passes.

Give me some numbers.

[coyotes_geek]

You don't give govt. programs a "shot". They never die. You bought it, you own it; FOREVER.

A-freaking-men! That's why social security and medicare are so ed up. No politician has the balls to stand up and say "we gave it a shot and it didn't work". So those situations just keep getting worse and worse and worse. Now Obama wants to continue the trend of ignoring those boondoggles and wants to create a new boondoggle of his own. It's incredibly naive.

[101A]

Of course. But my point is, conservatives are never going to get anywhere with either of these two arguments:

1) The lines will be long! = Poor people don't care if lines are long, because they don't have health care now.

2) The rich have to pay for the poor = Poor people don't care if rich people have to pay for it.

The only way conservatives win this fight is if they convince the middle class that it's against the best interest.

It just annoys me to see people throw out the above 2 arguments, and think they're going to convince any people that aren't already on their side.

The only decent argument is the one about growing the government. You might convince enough voters that "extra taxes = bad!"

"Poor" people, or people without coverage aren't who's going to make this happen - it's fewer than 20% of the population. The battle is being argued/fought by people who all have insurance/coverage.

I have no problem with everybody having some kind of coverage - in fact, I think it is a something we ought to have in this country. Everyone is en led to quality healthcare. My problem is with the government running it. The government sucks at everything it does. This will not be any different.