This, according to ESPN's Chris Broussard

[coyotes_geek]

You already made this point earlier, though I still don't understand why you're comparing players +/- from ty teams (Gortat's played 35% of the minutes Bonner did). They're obviously going to be bad.

The point I'm making is that good things happen when Bonner is on the court. +/- numbers ARE a good indicator of that like you just proved. You can point to where I ever ventured outside of the parameters of this argument, instead of trying to find fault with the numbers themselves.

Your rebuttal is that he played with TP and TD, but he still posted positive numbers regardless in 500 more minutes. He can't go higher than them when he plays with them, so how did his rise so exceptionally?

Okay, let's go back to square one. Bonner's +/- is 300-something. I agree that indicates that when Matt Bonner played, the Spurs outscored their opponents by a good margin. Now what? What do we use this information for?

[z0sa]

Okay, let's go back to square one. Bonner's +/- is 300-something. I agree that indicates that when Matt Bonner played, the Spurs outscored their opponents by a good margin. Now what? What do we use this information for?

To stop the haters from hating. That's all I wanted it for. Bonner has nothing to prove to the knowledgable Spursfan. He outperformed every expectation last season. He guarded guys like Amare and Bynum decently throughout the season. and his one good game in the playoffs happened to be the one we won.

Bonner's contributions to this team were seriously underrated. When he can go back to being the solid bench big he is, there's few better in the whole L.

[vander]

Okay, let's go back to square one. Bonner's +/- is 300-something. I agree that indicates that when Matt Bonner played, the Spurs outscored their opponents by a good margin. Now what? What do we use this information for?

after 48 minutes of play, how is it decided which team played better and is deserving of the win?

[hater]

I guess we are settling with Gooden then.

[coyotes_geek]

after 48 minutes of play, how is it decided which team played better and is deserving of the win?

The one who scored more points. What does that have to do with Bonner and his +/-?

[vander]

The one who scored more points. What does that have to do with Bonner and his +/-?

oh nothing I guess, what does outscoring your opponents have to do with scoring more points, I don't see the connection either

[Ace9]

This thread is slowly turning into the +/- thread: Matt Bonner edition...

[objective]

To stop the haters from hating. That's all I wanted it for. Bonner has nothing to prove to the knowledgable Spursfan. He outperformed every expectation last season. He guarded guys like Amare and Bynum decently throughout the season. and his one good game in the playoffs happened to be the one we won.

Well, sorry for being a hater but Bonner only started playing well and knocking down shots in game 2 after Parker got the Spurs a double digit lead, his first basket came when they were up 13. It's not like Bonner is the reason they won the game. Without his points the Spurs still win by 10.

[coyotes_geek]

oh nothing I guess, what does outscoring your opponents have to do with scoring more points, I don't see the connection either

Did Matt Bonner score all the team's points by himself while he was out there, or did he get some help?

[vander]

Did Matt Bonner score all the team's points by himself while he was out there, or did he get some help?

are you serious? man, you are really trying as hard as you can to NOT understand the meaning, context, and reality of the +/- Statistic. I want for you to understand it, but you're basically plugging your ears and screaming la-la-la-la.

[Extra Stout]

On a 53 win roster, Bonner had an extremely high +/-. Therefore, its clear he was a contributor to those wins.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

[Extra Stout]

but that doesn't explain how his +/- is the BEST on the TEAM. in order for other players to be pulling his # up, they would have to have a better +/- first.

Bonner's +/- can't pull ahead of TP or TD when he's on the court with TP or TD

another way of putting it. in most 5 man units involving Bonner, if you replace Bonner, the +/- for the unit decreases

Bonner is a mediocre player. However, the players behind him in the rotation were bad, awful, horrific, miserable, and terrible, so by comparison he looks pretty good.

[Obstructed_View]

I guess we are settling with Gooden then.

Settling on a career 12 and 8 guy. How sad.

[coyotes_geek]

are you serious? man, you are really trying as hard as you can to NOT understand the meaning, context, and reality of the +/- Statistic. I want for you to understand it, but you're basically plugging your ears and screaming la-la-la-la.

I understand the meaning, context and reality just fine. The meaning is the number is merely an indication of what happened when the player was on the court. The context is that number is highly dependent on who you share the court with. The reality is that it's a meaningless number in terms of assessing an individual player's ability.

[Obstructed_View]

Bonner is a mediocre player. However, the players behind him in the rotation were bad, awful, horrific, miserable, and terrible, so by comparison he looks pretty good.

Bonner was a mediocre starting NBA center. News flash: He's not a starting NBA center.

[Ryvin1]

I understand the meaning, context and reality just fine. The meaning is the number is merely an indication of what happened when the player was on the court. The context is that number is highly dependent on who you share the court with. The reality is that it's a meaningless number in terms of assessing an individual player's ability.

+1

it doesn't mean his presence on the court doesn't effect the play of other players on the court but I think +/- is oversimplification of a person effect on the game.

If I'm in the rotation and did nothing, and the other players on the court while I'm there are awesome I'd have a nice +/- stat but doesn't guarantee my presence on the court was the cause of the team better performance.

[Da Spurs]

and his one good game in the playoffs happened to be the one we won.

So you admit it. He sucked during the playoffs! Thank you very much. The point I was trying to make all along.

[buttsR4rebounding]

I can't find any news on Sheed and the Spurs. Just a bunch of articles on SA, Miami and Boston interests in Sheed. Also, that Garnett has been bending his ear to go with Boston and they are good freinds. But I say who cares if they are good freinds? This is a business. If I was Sheed I would want to start and no amount of jokes Garnett can tell me during games would change my mind about starting.

I mean why would he want to come off the bench? Wonder when any news will break?

Darn, that's not like Pop to keep things close to the vest. He normally sends out a press release when he takes a dump...

[vander]

I understand the meaning, context and reality just fine. The meaning is the number is merely an indication of what happened when the player was on the court. The context is that number is highly dependent on who you share the court with. The reality is that it's a meaningless number in terms of assessing an individual player's ability.

no, you most definitely don't
it's the most meaningful statistic over the course of the season or more, no one or even 2 other stats are as all-encompassingly telling about a player's effect on the success of a team; and all other stats are represented to some extent in the +/-.
it's not dependent on who someone shares the court with because over the course of the season everyone shares the court with everyone else. if you want, and it can be weighted to treat all 5 man units equally instead of based on how many minutes that unit played together. basketballvalue.com does that, sometimes it has a big effect, it can flush out interesting anomalies.

[Spurs Brazil]

Celtics continue to recruit Wallace

Here’s how badly the Boston Celtics believe Rasheed Wallace(notes) can be the difference in winning an 18th NBA championship next season: Coach Doc Rivers and the Big Three were planning a recruiting trip to woo him, possibly as early as Wednesday afternoon, league sources said.

The Celtics are targeting Wallace with the midlevel exception and sources say the team – which could be willing to pay a steep luxury tax – is also pursuing Phoenix’s Grant Hill(notes). Sources say that Celtics management met with Wallace late last night, and that they would be followed with a visit from the coach, as well Kevin Garnett(notes), Paul Pierce(notes) and Ray Allen(notes). Garnett and Wallace have a close relationship.


Boston officials are convinced that these next 24 to 48 hours are critical in overtaking the Cleveland Cavaliers and Orlando Magic in the Eastern Conference, and eventually, the defending champion Los Angeles Lakers.

Wallace, who turns 35 in September, is the free agent power forward that most of the contenders covet, including Cleveland, Orlando, San Antonio and Dallas.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns

[Extra Stout]

it's the most meaningful statistic over the course of the season or more

Utter nonsense.

[holcs50]

I have a hunch sheed will ultimately choose Boston. So I think we get mcdyess out pronto and lock up a legit big guy before they all get picked over.

[BacktoBasics]

The training staff in Detroit played an integral role in extending McDyess's career. He's been quoted before as crediting them with a lot of his success. I'm not sold that he'd leave that easily.

[mytespurs]

Well, if it's comes down to Boston vs San Antonio, both teams have won championships and will be in contention so........I think we just have to be patient and may the best contender win!

[lefty]

Well, if it's comes down to Boston vs San Antonio, both teams have won championships and will be in contention so........I think we just have to be patient and may the best contender win!

Rasheed to Boston

Rasheed to San Antonio


Either way, that's bad news for the Lakers


FTL