Obama/Gates/Police fiasco....

[ChumpDumper]

Yep. Which as anyone familiar with the criminal justice systems know isn't always related to the validity of the charges.

But in this case, it's clear that Gates' actions as reported by the police could not have been successfully prosecuted

Okay. You're free to make ill-informed pronouncements just like President Obama. I'll wait until we have more facts and, in the interim, I'll rely on the opinions of professionals who actually witnessed the incident.

I would never expect a police officer to willfully cir scribe his arrest powers.

Not recalling a minor subsection of the law that may not have even been there decades ago and, which doesn't really contradict what I said, isn't exactly being ignorant but, whatever floats your boat.

You were completely ignorant of the fact that threats are included in disorderly conduct. You cannot deny that.

No, he was arrested for disorderly conduct.

What disorderly conduct? That's all they say he did.

What would you be saying if, after the police left, Professor Gates had continued his tirade and carried over to the neighbors house that originally made the 911 call? He's already all but called her a racist in subsequent interviews.

Why are you making up again? You're afraid he was going to kill everyone. No one on the scene said anything of the sort. Quit making up.

I don't think it's completely out of the realm of possibilities that Mr. Gates, in his highly agitated state, would have viewed the police "just leaving" as another racist affront and looked for some way to take out his righteous indignation.

Yes, by killing everyone in the neighborhood, right?

And old man was standing on his porch yelling that a cop was racist. He got arrested for it.

[Yonivore]

But in this case, it's clear that Gates' actions as reported by the police could not have been successfully prosecuted

No, I don't think that's clear.

I would never expect a police officer to willfully cir scribe his arrest powers.

They do it all the time. Verbal and written warnings and choosing not to arrest for officer discretion type offenses (such as disorderly conduct) happens all the time.

You were completely ignorant of the fact that threats are included in disorderly conduct. You cannot deny that.

Well, we obviously disagree on the wording of the section. Being threatening isn't a threat and one can make a threat without being threatening. Besides, you're leaving out the qualifying element...that one must be threatening in public and in an offensive manner. It's actually those elements that make it disorderly conduct. All that aside, I'm willing to own up that after a couple of decades, I had forgotten the word "threatening" appeared in the 4th subsection of the statute. But, given it has been amended several times since I was on the street, you should probably verify that it was there before accusing me of being ignorant.

What disorderly conduct? That's all they say he did.

I haven't seen the criminal complaint. Have you? Were you present?

Why are you making up again?

It's a hypothetical. Just curious...because, police have made the mistake of just leaving a raving lunatic on his front porch screaming only to have to return to a worse incident.

Yes, by killing everyone in the neighborhood, right?

No middle ground with you, is there?

And old man was standing on his porch yelling that a cop was racist. He got arrested for it.

He got arrested for disorderly conduct.

[manufan10]

Examples of Disorderly Conduct
Disorderly conduct offenses vary widely by state. Here are some of the most common acts that are considered disorderly conduct offenses:
Public drunkenness
Inciting a riot
disturbance of the peace
loitering in certain areas
fighting / physical altercations
obstructing traffic
use of extremely obscene or abusive language
loud or unreasonable noise
Given the wide range of behaviors that could cons ute disorderly conduct, a person may be arrested for this crime without proper cause. Virtually any socially offensive or disruptive conduct may be prosecuted as disorderly conduct.


A first-time offender's disorderly conduct sentence is typically very light. This sentence may be even be suspended if certain conditions are met.

http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-sourc...y-conduct.html

Many types of obnoxious or unruly conduct may fit the definition of disorderly conduct, as such statutes are often used as "catch-all" crimes. Police may use a disorderly conduct charge to keep the peace when a person is behaving in a disruptive manner, but presents no serious public danger.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a...y_conduct.html

Disorderly conduct may take the form of directly disturbing the peace, as when one intentionally disrupts a public meeting or awakens a sleeping community. Less directly, it includes fighting in a public place, although it does not apply to one who defends himself on being attacked. Most jurisdictions penalize displays of public drunkenness. Some maintain vagrancy statutes that penalize persons found to be idle and without visible means of support. These may include pros utes, beggars, gamblers, or alcoholics.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...rderly-conduct

b) Directs at another person in a public place obscene, derisive, or offensive words which are likely to provoke a violent reaction on the part of an ordinary person;

""Public place'' means any place to which the public or a substantial group has access. The term includes, but is not limited to, public ways, sidewalks, schools, hospitals, government offices or facilities, and the lobbies or hallways of apartment buildings, dormitories, hotels or motels.



I wasn't there, so I don't know how loud the yelling was. According to what I've looked up, it is reasonable for the officer to arrest Gates. Did he have to? Of course not, but reviewing what disorderly conduct is, which is what Gates was charged with, it can be seen that the officer did have a choice to arrest him or not. I still believe that both of them acted stupidly. Gates is a moron for not being happy that the officers were there to benefit HIM. Crowley could have used better judgement and continue to his car instead of stopping each time Gates called him out. However, many of us act the same way when confronted in front of coworkers/friends. We don't want to be seen as weak so we do something about it. We try and act tough. It happened. It's done, now let's move on.

[ChumpDumper]

Sorry, I already posted the Massachusetts statute and relevant case law. Yelling at the police wasn't going to cut it.

I do agree both parties acted stupidly.

[manufan10]

CHAPTER 272. CRIMES AGAINST CHAS Y, MORALITY, DECENCY AND GOOD ORDER

Chapter 272: Section 53. Penalty for certain offenses

Section 53. Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

Yelling doesn't cut it, yet we don't know the language that Gates used. If he used any vulgar language while yelling it COULD be warranted for an arrest. We don't know the FULL details of what went down.

[manufan10]

Lewd: obscene or indecent .
a. low, ignorant, or vulgar.
b. base, vile, or wicked, esp. of a person.
c. bad, worthless, or poor, esp. of a thing.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lewd

[ChumpDumper]

You can search the thread for my post, at least part of that code has been struck down by the state courts.

It wasn't going to cut it. They should have just left.

[ChumpDumper]

Lewd: obscene or indecent .
a. low, ignorant, or vulgar.
b. base, vile, or wicked, esp. of a person.
c. bad, worthless, or poor, esp. of a thing.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lewd

Seriously, that's not working.

[ChumpDumper]

The post about Massachusetts' disorderly conduct law is one page back.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=506

[manufan10]

The post about Massachusetts' disorderly conduct law is one page back.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=506

Yeah, I already found it. Just reading it over.

[ploto]

However, many of us act the same way when confronted in front of coworkers/ friends. We don't want to be seen as weak so we do something about it. We try and act tough.

But police officers are supposed to know how to deal with this in a better manner. The cop could just walk away realizing that the guy was pissed about being accused of breaking into his own residence and been done with it. The fact that he did not shows that he- the cop- was responding emotionally and not rationally- what people have accused Gates of doing. The behavior is more understandable from the citizen than from the cop who is trained to deal with upset people. If you fault Gates for his behavior, you have to fault the cop, as well, and in my view, even moreso because it is the cop's job to deal with tense situations and he should have handled it better.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

To every idiot bringing up "he should've just walked away", he did. You must not have read the police report. Professor jackass decided to make things worse. And to the idiots championing the charge drop, most first time offenders of this charge are normally dropped. I posted that here, but that's no surprise that it wasn't read.

[ploto]

To every idiot bringing up "he should've just walked away", he did.

Walk away, keep walking, get in his car, and drive off.

[manufan10]

But police officers are supposed to know how to deal with this in a better manner. The cop could just walk away realizing that the guy was pissed about being accused of breaking into his own residence and been done with it. The fact that he did not shows that he- the cop- was responding emotionally and not rationally- what people have accused Gates of doing. The behavior is more understandable from the citizen than from the cop who is trained to deal with upset people. If you fault Gates for his behavior, you have to fault the cop, as well, and in my view, even moreso because it is the cop's job to deal with tense situations and he should have handled it better.

I have said that the cop is also at fault. But come on, just because he's a cop doesn't make him any less human.

[ChumpDumper]

To every idiot bringing up "he should've just walked away", he did. You must not have read the police report. Professor jackass decided to make things worse.

Actually he made them the same, just on his porch where he could supposedly be arrested.

And to the idiots championing the charge drop, most first time offenders of this charge are normally dropped. I posted that here, but that's no surprise that it wasn't read.

There was no way in he could have been convicted given the facts provided by the police. I posted that here, but that's no surprise that you didn't read it.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Cambridge police: Race not mentioned in 911 call

"Contrary to published reports that a 'white woman' called 911 and reported seeing 'two black men' trying to gain entry into Mr. Gates home, the woman, who has olive colored skin and is of Portuguese descent, told the 911 operator that she observed 'two men' at the home," Murphy's statement read.

Haas said Whalen, after questioning by the dispatcher during the 911 call, speculated that one of the men — who turned out to be Gates and a black car service driver — may have been Hispanic.

"It was very clear that she wasn't sure what the men's race was," Haas said in an interview with The Boston Globe Sunday night.

The 911 tapes have not yet been made public, but Haas has said he expected some version of the tapes to be released within the next few days.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/...scholar_caller

[rjv]

i don't think this thread is the sort of discourse hegel had in mind when speaking of a dialogue that would move history forward.

it has been 21 pages of obama bashing versus obama defending.

[Crookshanks]

i don't think this thread is the sort of discourse hegel had in mind when speaking of a dialogue that would move history forward.

it has been 21 pages of obama bashing versus obama defending.

And one of the main reasons this thread is so long is because Chump keeps saying over and over and over and over and over that the cop should've just left.

We get where you're coming from Chump - now can you just shut up and stop posting the same crap repeatedly? I'm beginning to wonder if you're suffering from OCD.

[ploto]

Contrary to published reports that a 'white woman' called 911 and reported seeing 'two black men' trying to gain entry into Mr. Gates home, the woman, who has olive colored skin and is of Portuguese descent, told the 911 operator that she observed 'two men' at the home," Murphy's statement read.

Haas said Whalen, after questioning by the dispatcher during the 911 call, speculated that one of the men — who turned out to be Gates and a black car service driver — may have been Hispanic.

"It was very clear that she wasn't sure what the men's race was," Haas said in an interview with The Boston Globe Sunday night.

If this is indeed true, then the cop is in hot water because in the police report he clearly claims:

"She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch of ___ Ware Street."

If you notice the other officer in his report never says anything about race. He wrote that the woman told him she saw a man wedging his shoulder into the door as is to pry it open.

[sam1617]

If this is indeed true, then the cop is in hot water because in the police report he clearly claims:

"She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch of ___ Ware Street."

If you notice the other officer in his report never says anything about race. He wrote that the woman told him she saw a man wedging his shoulder into the door as is to pry it open.

Is it possible that she told him when he got to the scene? Since, you know, 911 calls don't get routed directly to the officer, and that would be the first chance for them to speak...

[ploto]

Is it possible that she told him when he got to the scene?

Not likely when she already told 911 of which there is recording that she did not know and thought one might be Hispanic. It is unlikely she suddenly decided they were black. The other officer makes no mention of her claiming a race to him. The only person claiming the suspects were two black men is the one cop. It will be interesting to see if we ever hear from this woman and whether or not she says she told anyone they were black.

[Winehole23]

i don't think this thread is the sort of discourse hegel had in mind when speaking of a dialogue that would move history forward.

To bad no one offers odds on this *not* happening.

it has been 21 pages of obama bashing versus obama defending.

Are you sure you read all the way through? I have a hard time seeing support for this in the thread.

IMO the emphasis on Obama, for and against, has been minor. And most of those taking up cudgels for Gates have remarked on the inappropriateness of the President's remarks.

Most of the focus has been on whether the arrest was proper. The thread has been tedious, repe ive, petty, spiteful and trite at times -- there are a lot of things to dislike it for -- but singling out Obama bashing/apology as its central controversy, seems plainly mistaken to me.

There were a couple of posters who bashed Obama, and I do recall a couple of unpersuasive attempts to delink Mr. Obama's judgment about the stupidity of the arrest and his short discussion about racial profiling. But this dispute never really took off IMO.

[rjv]

To bad no one offers odds on this *not* happening.

Are you sure you read all the way through? I have a hard time seeing support for this in the thread.

IMO the emphasis on Obama, for and against, has been minor. And most of those taking up cudgels for Gates have remarked on the inappropriateness of the President's remarks.

Most of the focus has been on whether the arrest was proper. The thread has been tedious, repe ive, petty, spiteful and trite at times -- there are a lot of things to dislike it for -- but singling out Obama bashing/apology as its central controversy, seems plainly mistaken to me.

There were a couple of posters who bashed Obama, and I do recall a couple of unpersuasive attempts to delink Mr. Obama's judgment about the stupidity of the arrest and his short discussion about racial profiling. But this dispute never really took off IMO.

i have read most of the posts and the general tone is what i somewhat sardonically stated it was. but perhaps that is because some of the more adamant posts seem to be guided by an agenda or a proclivity towards bashing obama.

[Winehole23]

i have read most of the posts and the general tone is what i somewhat sardonically stated it was. but perhaps that is because some of the more adamant posts seem to be guided by an agenda or a proclivity towards bashing obama.

The odds of this approach one in any given *politics* thread. It's a traditional pastime for whoever's out of power.

[rjv]

The odds of this approach one in any given *politics* thread. It's a traditional pastime for whoever's out of power.

actually i think it has become the flavor of debate in all political theater.

but i digress. i'll try to get back to the intent of the thread at least.