50 players better than Pippen?

[ambchang]

no .

I'd also take Kevin Durant ahead of Pippen.

Let's not go nuts. Durant could be a better scorer, definitely a more natural scorer, but he is no where close to Pippen in terms of defense and facilitating an offense.

Right now, Durant is closer to a Bernand King.

[Phillip]

Pippen was a superb defender. Dirk is garbage on the defensive side not to mention soft.

But for the main man in my team I might have to still pick Dirk cause I could surround him with defenders. But if I already had a superstar, I would pick Pippen over Dirk. Pippen > Dirk as a compliment next to a superstar.

Dirk isn't nearly as bad of a defender as you say he is, and he most definitely is not soft. Only morons like you think that.

Dirk is so much better of a basketball player than Pippen, it's not even funny. Pippen was a great role player, but proved that he would never be better than a #2 option, and that any team with him as the #1 guy would not be very successful. Dirk proved that he can consistently take an average supporting cast far in the playoffs, even making the Finals (that many argue they should have won if it werent for fishy officials)

It's not a "might" when it comes to taking Dirk over Pippen as your star. It's "no question about it".

Then again, it figures you would say that, spurfan.

Now proceed with your usual lame garbage saying that I'm a "mav fan that knows nothing about defense and winning... the warriors beat yall and were 8th seeds!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[hater]

Dirk isn't nearly as bad of a defender as you say he is, and he most definitely is not soft.

DENIAL

Dirk is so much better of a basketball player than Pippen, it's not even funny. Pippen was a great role player, but proved that he would never be better than a #2 option, and that any team with him as the #1 guy would not be very successful. Dirk proved that he can consistently take an average supporting cast far in the playoffs, even making the Finals (that many argue they should have won if it werent for fishy officials)

Dirk is not way better than Pippen. You are smoking crack. read what I wrote genius. Dirk might be slightly better than Pippen and is a "borderline" franchise player, but not quite there yet.

Pippen was also never there but his defense, toughness (something that Dirk clearly lacks) make him a better option as a #2 guy on a team over Dirk. Dirk would just take shots away from the #1 guy without giving any help on defense.

[Phillip]

DENIAL

No. Playing with your teeth knocked out isn't soft. Playing with high ankle sprains isn't soft. And not retaliating in a league where you get suspended for simply leaving the area of your bench during an altercation isn't soft... its called self-control and brains.

Dirk is not way better than Pippen. You are smoking crack. read what I wrote genius. Dirk might be slightly better than Pippen and is a "borderline" franchise player, but not quite there yet.

a guy who has been averaging around 25 and 9 for his career is far superior to a guy putting up 18 and 6. not to mention Dirk is the one getting doubled and tripled. Pippen lived off of Jordan getting doubled and tripled. When he actually did get the chance to be the #1 guy, he was decent, but was fortunate to play in a fairly weak conference and still wasn't all that successful. Sure, people say he got over 50 wins one year. So? With Jordan, that team was getting 60-70 wins a year. So a 20+ game swing is actually pretty big and nothing to brag about.

Dirk took mediocre talent to the Finals, while Pippen never did crap.

Pippen was also never there but his defense, toughness (something that Dirk clearly lacks) make him a better option as a #2 guy on a team over Dirk. Dirk would just take shots away from the #1 guy without giving any help on defense.

I think the whole #2 thing depends on the build of the team. But to say that Dirk would just take shots away, is crap. First off, he is an incredibly proficent shooter, which is usually a good complement to #1 guys. Second, his offensive presence would make it MUCH tougher to focus so much defensive attention on the #1. Could you imagine a duo of Dirk and Lebron? It might be the best scoring duo the league has ever seen, with Dirk taking either the opposing teams best defender, or their big man out of the middle, making it FAR easier for Lebron to go to work on either a lesser defender, or an open interior.

If you are looking for a guy to be a well rounded player, sure, Pippen is probably your man. But if you are looking for a second superstar... Dirk all day.

Fact is, if Pippen averaged those numbers and didn't get those rings (playing alongside MJ keep in mind), no one would even think about putting him on a top 50 all-time list, maybe not even a top 100, as there are plenty of players in history that could do similar things and put up similar numbers to what Pippen did. Dirk doesn't have to win any rings (and he very well may not), and he is regardless going to be considered a top 50 player when hes done, and one of the best PFs to play the game.

Dirk >>>>>>> Pippen

[Brazil]

Potentially Lebron is >>>>>>>>>> Pippen. If Lebron career stopped now we cannot say Lebron > Pippen on a potential because potentially you can argue mc grady > pippen. Lebron has a lot to do yet.

I'm not sure I'm clear

[Phillip]

oh almost forgot

mcgrady > pippen

[La Peace]

I would take LBJ, McHale, and Dirk over Pippen.

Kevin Garnett?

[LnGrrrR]

Let's see the case for KG

12 all star games (10 consecutive), 8 1st team All-Defense, 2 2nd team All-Defense, 9 time All-NBA (4 on 1st team)

20.2 PPG, 11.1 RPG

MVP, DPOY

Yeah, I feel safe putting him above Pippen.

[Dunc n Dave]

No. Playing with your teeth knocked out isn't soft. Playing with high ankle sprains isn't soft. And not retaliating in a league where you get suspended for simply leaving the area of your bench during an altercation isn't soft... its called self-control and brains.





a guy who has been averaging around 25 and 9 for his career is far superior to a guy putting up 18 and 6. not to mention Dirk is the one getting doubled and tripled. Pippen lived off of Jordan getting doubled and tripled. When he actually did get the chance to be the #1 guy, he was decent, but was fortunate to play in a fairly weak conference and still wasn't all that successful. Sure, people say he got over 50 wins one year. So? With Jordan, that team was getting 60-70 wins a year. So a 20+ game swing is actually pretty big and nothing to brag about.

Dirk took mediocre talent to the Finals, while Pippen never did crap.



I think the whole #2 thing depends on the build of the team. But to say that Dirk would just take shots away, is crap. First off, he is an incredibly proficent shooter, which is usually a good complement to #1 guys. Second, his offensive presence would make it MUCH tougher to focus so much defensive attention on the #1. Could you imagine a duo of Dirk and Lebron? It might be the best scoring duo the league has ever seen, with Dirk taking either the opposing teams best defender, or their big man out of the middle, making it FAR easier for Lebron to go to work on either a lesser defender, or an open interior.

If you are looking for a guy to be a well rounded player, sure, Pippen is probably your man. But if you are looking for a second superstar... Dirk all day.

Fact is, if Pippen averaged those numbers and didn't get those rings (playing alongside MJ keep in mind), no one would even think about putting him on a top 50 all-time list, maybe not even a top 100, as there are plenty of players in history that could do similar things and put up similar numbers to what Pippen did. Dirk doesn't have to win any rings (and he very well may not), and he is regardless going to be considered a top 50 player when hes done, and one of the best PFs to play the game.

Dirk >>>>>>> Pippen

How many All Defensive Teams has Dirk been on? Pippen made it 10 times, 8 times on the 1st Team... Dirk? There's a reason everyone called him _irk early in his career.

Pippen is a 6'8" SF and Dirk is a 6'11" PF. Dirk should be averaging over 10 reb for his career for a guy his size, but he doesn't because he's soft. He also has one of the lowest blocks per game average for guys 6'11" and up.

OFFENSIVELY: Dirk > Pippen
DEFENSIVELY: Dirk <<<<<Pippen

And that is garbage about Dirk taking a "mediocre" cast to the Finals. Dirk has been surrounded by at least 2 or 3 All Star quality players his whole career.

He's had Finley and Nash both young and in their primes, pre 2003.
He had Finley, Nash, and Van Exel in 2003 when the Spurs took them out.
He had Nash, Finley, Antawn Jamison, and Antoine Walker in 2004.
He had Devin Harris, Stackhouse, Terry, and a rookie Josh Howard in 2005-2006.
The Finals team had those same guys on it.
Now he's recently had Kidd, Terry, and Howard.
And he's about to have 4 guys around him again (just like in 2004) with Marion being added.

EVERY SINGLE ONE of those guys I listed above (with the exception of Terry and Devin Harris) have been All Stars in their careers. Harris WILL be an All Star in the next 2 years and Terry was All Star caliber when he came from Atlanta, and has won 6th Man of the Year.

None of those guys qualify as "mediocre."

While Jordan was playing baseball Pippen played the first year with ONE borderline All Star in BJ Armstrong (who only got in off the Bulls 3peat success from the year before), a declining Horace Grant, and a new to the NBA Toni Kukoc when he won 55 games.
The next year Grant split for Orlando and Pippen was playing with Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Will Perdue, and Ron Harper in the starting lineup with him. Kukoc gave him 15 ppg, and Armstrong 14. The next best scorer they had was Steve Kerr at 8ppg. THAT is a mediocre cast of players. Yet they still made in to teh 2nd round.

[Phillip]

I'm sorry, but I don't know what I'm talking about. May I lick your balls?

[dirk4mvp]

You're sadly misinformed.

[BUMP]

Yet they still made in to teh 2nd round.

/sarcasm

[jacobdrj]

Grant Hill?

[LnGrrrR]

Grant Hill?

Hm... interesting idea... off the top of my head I'd say no, but let me check out his stats.

(Note: I give lots of weight to All-NBA teams and the like because they show that the player was considered one of the best that year... if anyone's wondering.)

He tore it up, obviously, as a rookie, winning the Rookie of the Year. He then made six straight! All-NBA teams. However... his production dropped off severely after his injury.

If Hill had never been injured, then yeah, definitely. Maybe we should put Grant Hill (pre-injury) on the charts?

[jacobdrj]

Paul Pierce

[LnGrrrR]

Paul Pierce

Even I'm not that much of a homer

[Admiral]

I haven't read the whole thread, but had to respond to the person who said they weren't sure if Stockton were better than Pippen. Is that a joke? Stockton is arguably the best point guard ever. Pippen was a good player, for sure, but there is no debating that Stockton was better (although it is admittedly tough to compare players who played different positions).

EDIT: just saw someone actually debating whether Grant Hill is better than Pippen. Wow. This is not even up for debate, as Pippen is light years ahead of Grant Hill.

[ambchang]

I see that Pippen was underrated, as usual. He made some very questionable decisions during his career (migrane, Kukoc incident), and is generally unlikable due to his constant smirk, but he was a great great player.

His offense during his prime was good statistically (pts, assists) with or without Jordan, but his impact was better. He can shoot from outside, can pass with the best of them, directs traffic well, one of the best drivers in the game, one of the best finishers on the break, can score with either hand, can post up. In other words, there is not one thing he can't do on the offensive end.

His defense was legendary. I am ready to put him as one of the best perimeter defenders in the history of the league. Sidney Moncrief, Dennis Johnson, Michael Cooper, Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, and Scottie Pippen, there are probably a few I have forgotten, but this is a really short list, and Pippen was most definitely in it. He was big enough to guard strong players, quick enough to guard small players, and his wingspan caused major headaches to his man and wreaks havoc in the passing lanes.

You are talking about a pre-injury Grant Hill on offense, and a Bruce Bowen on defense, that was how good he was.

As for comparisons with Stockton, totally different players, but I probably would choose Stockton over Pippen myself as well. Stockton was not as good defensively, but was a better shooter, facilitates an offense even better, and PGs are harder to come by.

[manufor3]

stockton is the greatest point guard of all time. but him on the list.

[LnGrrrR]

I haven't read the whole thread, but had to respond to the person who said they weren't sure if Stockton were better than Pippen. Is that a joke? Stockton is arguably the best point guard ever. Pippen was a good player, for sure, but there is no debating that Stockton was better (although it is admittedly tough to compare players who played different positions).

EDIT: just saw someone actually debating whether Grant Hill is better than Pippen. Wow. This is not even up for debate, as Pippen is light years ahead of Grant Hill.

Hence why I said we could maybe put "pre-injury" Grant Hill in the debate

[Dunc n Dave]

...

Nice response... Silence speaks volumes when you know I'm right.

Dirk has never had a "mediocre" cast, and you know it... He's always had other All Star players around him.

Replace Dirk with Duncan on that 2006 Dallas team and the Mavs beat Miami in 5 games. You can't deny it...

[Dunc n Dave]

You're sadly misinformed.

Look it up. All of those guys have been All Stars (except Terry and Harris) and the majority of them were still in their primes when they played for the Mavs.

The Spurs have had only 5 All Stars in the last 15 years (Elliott ONCE, Manu ONCE, Parker, Robinson, and Duncan) and have won 4 championships

Dirk is about to play with his 9th different ALL Star in Marion and hasn't won a thing. He's always been 1 of 3 All Star quality players on his team. Yeah, that's pretty "mediocre."

[z0sa]

Look it up. All of those guys have been All Stars (except Terry and Harris) and the majority of them were still in their primes when they played for the Mavs.

The Spurs have had only 5 All Stars in the last 15 years (Elliott ONCE, Manu ONCE, Parker, Robinson, and Duncan) and have won 4 championships

Dirk is about to play with his 9th different ALL Star in Marion and hasn't won a thing. He's always been 1 of 3 All Star quality players on his team. Yeah, that's pretty "mediocre."

I do agree that the whole "Dirk has never had talent" thing is overblown. He's had remarkable coaches and plenty of talent to get the job done. The problem for a long time was a lack of commitment, both individually and as a team, to defense.

[dirk4mvp]

Nice response... Silence speaks volumes when you know I'm right.

Dirk has never had a "mediocre" cast, and you know it... He's always had other All Star players around him.

Replace Dirk with Duncan on that 2006 Dallas team and the Mavs beat Miami in 5 games. You can't deny it...

Duncan would've held Wade? That's news.

[anakha]

Pippen was highly overrated, and most people cant give you even on highlight of his career after Jordan left the Bulls, and Pippen was in his prime.

In fairness, I'd say Pippen was past his prime as well when Jordan retired in '98.