The Second Banana: Dirk vs. Manu

[benefactor]

Alright...let's settle this. If you had to pick a PRIME version of either as a compliment to Tim Duncan which would you pick? I'd like to see some valid arguments too.

[DAF86]

You know my opinion, besides I think Manu compliments Tim's game a lot more.

[benefactor]

Here are my thoughts from another thread:

Both players are great and equally productive. Dirk gets the nod for two big reasons. First, he is completely unguardable. He is basically a seven foot tall SG/SF. If you put him on the Spurs beside Duncan in the early/mid-2000's you have a tandem that cannot be stopped. Name a team during that time that could have stopped them. They would have beaten the Pistons in '04, the Heat in '06 and the Celtics in '08. Put Manu on the Mavericks and Dirk on the Spurs in 2006 and we sweep them. There is a good chance that they could have taken a le away from the Lakers during their run too...but even if they don't that is six les.

The second..and possibly biggest reason is their style of play. Dirk is a finesse big man and Manu is a balls to the wall SG. Manu puts his body on the line every night and because of that he is always at risk for injury. Dirk on the other hand, is completely opposite. His style of play is to avoid contact and use is high release to shoot over his opponent. The largest number of games that Dirk has missed in any one season since 99-00 is 6.

[DAF86]

Do you remember Manu at his prime? the guy would put 25 points per game taking just 9 shots attemps.

[benefactor]

You know my opinion, besides I think Manu compliments Tim's game a lot more.

Not really. Dirk is a shooting big who can hit just about anything outside the lane and on the block Duncan was devastating during his prime. It would be easier to neutralize Manu with a good perimeter defender. There isn't a front line player in the league that is capable of guarding Dirk.

[DAF86]

Not really. Dirk is a shooting big who can hit just about anything outside the lane and on the block Duncan was devastating during his prime. It would be easier to neutralize Manu with a good perimeter defender. There isn't a front line player in the league that is capable of guarding Dirk.

Dirk couldn't have played the pick and roll (one of the bread and butter of our offense) with Tim the way Manu and Tim do.

[portnoy1]

I like still Like Manu over Dirk. Duncan Can take 20-30 shots while Manu takes 2 and Manu could still have an impact on the game. Dirk seems to need touches to be effective. He can pass, shoot and rebound ( decently ). However Manu can pass, shoot and rebound + DEFEND which covers/doesnt cover alot of categories. He brings energy off the bench. If Dirk came off the bench he would have to be the offense. Dirk, with his offensive skills could avg. 20pts off the bench. However he really cant do much more off the bench to help the team in a short burst ( say 5-8 minutes, avg. 25 minutes a game ). Ginobili makes and immediate impact whether it be offensively or DEFENSIVELY. Manu over Dirk as a sidekick simply because of Defensive Reasons. If Dirk Played Solid D, I might ( MIGHT ) pick Dirk cause then you would have the twin tower effect on offense and DEFENSE.

[Findog]

Dirk is not a "second banana," anymore than Kobe was a second banana to Shaq.

[benefactor]

Forgot to make the poll public. Can someone do that for me? Thanks.

[Findog]

Dirk couldn't have played the pick and roll (one of the bread and butter of our offense) with Tim the way Manu and Tim do.

Homer take #1

[Findog]

I like still Like Manu over Dirk. Duncan Can take 20-30 shots while Manu takes 2 and Manu could still have an impact on the game. Dirk seems to need touches to be effective. He can pass, shoot and rebound ( decently ). However Manu can pass, shoot and rebound + DEFEND which covers/doesnt cover alot of categories. He brings energy off the bench. If Dirk came off the bench he would have to be the offense. Dirk, with his offensive skills could avg. 20pts off the bench. However he really cant do much more off the bench to help the team in a short burst ( say 5-8 minutes, avg. 25 minutes a game ). Ginobili makes and immediate impact whether it be offensively or DEFENSIVELY. Manu over Dirk as a sidekick simply because of Defensive Reasons. If Dirk Played Solid D, I might ( MIGHT ) pick Dirk cause then you would have the twin tower effect on offense and DEFENSE.

Homer take #2

[DAF86]

Dirk couldn't have played the pick and roll (one of the bread and butter of our offense) with Tim the way Manu and Tim do.

Besides who would be the ball handler in clutch situation without Manu?

[Findog]

Duncan in his prime is a 1. Manu in his prime is a 2. Dirk in his prime is a 1.5

Put Dirk in place of Manu in any situation and that team is better off.

[benefactor]

Dirk is not a "second banana," anymore than Kobe was a second banana to Shaq.

Sorry about that...guess I should have used the term "complimentary".

[Findog]

Sorry about that...guess I should have used the term "complimentary".

Well, it's not really much of a discussion then. Dirk is better than Manu. Whatever you "lose" at Tim and Manu's ability to work the p'n'r is more than offset by what Dirk brings to the table.

[portnoy1]

Duncan in his prime is a 1. Manu in his prime is a 2. Dirk in his prime is a 1.5

Put Dirk in place of Manu in any situation and that team is better off.

I like Dirk's game and him and Duncan would have been unstoppable for defenses. However Defense Wins championships. Dirk has gotten better defensively but his BETTER DEFENSE is still not gonna cut it for a team looking to win a ring.

[dbestpro]

Dirk is not a "second banana," anymore than Kobe was a second banana to Shaq.

So you're saying Dirk is a second banana.

[Findog]

I like Dirk's game and him and Duncan would have been unstoppable for defenses. However Defense Wins championships. Dirk has gotten better defensively but his BETTER DEFENSE is still not gonna cut it for a team looking to win a ring.

I fail to understand how the Spurs wouldn't have been better if they had managed to trade Manu straight up for Dirk in 2002.

[Findog]

So you're saying Dirk is a second banana.

I'm saying Dirk is a franchise player. The Lakers happened to have two from 1997-2004.

[portnoy1]

Was that an actual Offer? Dirk For Manu.

[ambchang]

When Manu was on, there was no stopping him, but you have to go with Dirk on this one. Could you imagine Dirk standing next to Duncan? Put in Tony Parker and two shooters on the perimeter, and no one can double Duncan. An 2002/03 Duncan with a 06/07 Dirk would be absolutely amazing, I am going into convulsions just thinking about it.

Dirk could launch his shots wide open every time, he could drive by his man on the perimeter and go high low with Duncan, he can set screens for the shooters.

And a single teamed prime Duncan? That is like 35 ppg every game, guaranteed. Let me put it this way, with Dirk instead of Many in 04 and 06, the Spurs would have won 5 in a row, no question.

[dirk4mvp]

How many times have the Spurs won a le as a direct result of Manu's "defense"?

[benefactor]

Meh...Manu is overrated defensively. He is a gambler and a good team defender but he is not a great individual defender. One could easily argue that Dirk's lack of defense has been the result of his environment. Dirk is a very intelligent player and I think he could be a pretty good team defender if he was put somewhere that it was stressed....kinda like I think Manu would probably be a turnstile on defense if he played for Golden State.

[DAF86]

And please! please people, don't underrate what IMO is Manu's biggest atribute: the ability to make teammates better. Mohamed and Oberto should give half of the salaries they earned in the Spurs to Manu.

[Leetonidas]

Honestly I would rather have Dirk because although Manu in his prime was a stud, Dirk is bigger, a better shooter, a better rebounder, and a better scorer. Dirk would thrive as the second option to Tim Duncan with Parker running the point. Our inside-outside game would be sick. Imagine not being able to double Duncan because Nowitzki will pretty much hit the open three if you give it to him, or he'll hit it in your face on a turnaround fade away.

I love Manu and he is my 2nd favorite Spurs player next to Tim but Dirk is an MVP.