is manu the best international player of all time?

[monosylab1k]

Sabonis was 4th best just in Europe in his era.

die.

[Rogue]

Argentina won the bronze medal game against Lithuania at 2008 Olympics without Manu. I am starting to think most here do not even watch FIBA tournaments.

you're right, no one here has ever given a crap to FIBA tournaments even when team US gets involved.

[ElNono]

So the what? Dirk was an NBA rookie at 19, and established himself as a good player by the time he was 21. Manu wasn't good enough to play in the NBA until he was 25. I'm pretty sure Dirk would have some minor-league trophies of his own if he had stuck around that long.

It's not Manu's fault they didn't brought them in when he was drafted in 1999.
His team won the Euroleague in 2001, and he was the MVP.
Plus Dirk started to show what he got in 2002, the year before Manu showed up in the league.

[Findog]

Manu has been the best player on every team he's played for not named the San Antonio Spurs...

You're seriously bringing up the Italian League and Europe? Who fricken cares? The NBA has 75% of the best players in the world. It's like bragging about some Double A minor-league baseball farm club winning the Carolina League. Dirk was already a good NBA player at the age of 21. Manu was a 25 year old rookie and had to continue honing his game until he was ready to play with the big boys. Manu is a borderline All Star, a great #3 option and a good #2 option. Dirk is a franchise player.

[Findog]

It's not Manu's fault they didn't brought them in when he was drafted in 1999.
His team won the Euroleague in 2001, and he was the MVP.
Plus Dirk started to show what he got in 2002, the year before Manu showed up in the league.

It's like bragging that you led all of Triple A in batting average or something. Lower level play should not and usually does not merit much consideration. I don't disagree that Manu is a fierce compe or. I've seen him kill himself for his team. But that doesn't make him better than Dirk.

[Solid D]

Sabonis was 4th best just in Europe in his era.

Maybe stats-wise. For 15 years or so, except for a couple of years he missed due to injuries, he was a dominant European player. He patroled the lane, he was one of the best passing pivots in the history of basketball, and he was a winner. It's all subjective.

[ElNono]

Go Dirk Go

[ElNono]

You're hyping him for making one all star appearance? Manu is a great player and has had a great career, but you're making a ridiculous argument. It's been easy for manu to showcase his talent while he's 3rd on the mind of opposing defenses.

No, I'm actually destroying your weak ass argument that Manu can only stand out against lesser opponents.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Manu

1 Olympic Gold Medal

1 Triple Crown Championship*

1 Euroleague Championship*

1 Italian League Championship

2 Italian Cup Championships

1 FIBA Americas Championship

= 7 Championships

*Only half of the teams even played in the league that year due to the breaking up of FIBA existing as a league.

Spanoulis

1 FIBA European Championship
(European Championship is rated as a harder tournament by FIBA)

1 Triple Crown Championship

1 Euroleague Championship

3 Greek League Championships
(Greek League is harder to win than Italian League - best team in Italy would be 3rd best team in Greece)

3 Greek Cup Championships
(Greek Cup is harder to win than Italian Cup - best team in Italy would be 3rd best team in Greece)

= 9 Championships

No asterisks next to Euroleague and Triple Crown Championships of Spanoulis

[dirk4mvp]

Does KPB think spanoulis > Dirk?

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

So the what? Dirk was an NBA rookie at 19, and established himself as a good player by the time he was 21. Manu wasn't good enough to play in the NBA until he was 25. I'm pretty sure Dirk would have some minor-league trophies of his own if he had stuck around that long.

You are re ed.

[ElNono]

Manu

1 Olympic Gold Medal

1 Triple Crown Championship*

1 Euroleague Championship*

1 Italian League Championship

2 Italian Cup Championships

1 FIBA Americas Championship

= 7 Championships

*Only half of the teams even played in the league that year due to the breaking up of FIBA existing as a league.

Spanoulis

1 FIBA European Championship
(European Championship is rated as a harder tournament by FIBA)

1 Triple Crown Championship

1 Euroleague Championship

3 Greek League Championships
(Greek League is harder to win than Italian League - best team in Italy would be 3rd best team in Greece)

3 Greek Cup Championships
(Greek Cup is harder to win than Italian Cup - best team in Italy would be 3rd best team in Greece)

= 9 Championships

No asterisks next to Euroleague and Triple Crown Championships of Spanoulis

You forgot Manu's 3 NBA Championships.
Not to mention Manu can't play the Euros because he's actually not European. And Greek Championships ARE TRASH. That's like me trying to count up Manu's championships in Argentina.

[Rogue]

Does KPB think spanoulis > Dirk?

Spanoulis > Manu > Dirk, in terms of the championships they each got.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Brian Scalabrine and DJ Mbenga each have a ring.

McAdoo also has an NBA MVP. Do they also have NBA MVPs?

[ChumpDumper]

lol Greek league.

[jag]

No, I'm actually destroying your weak ass argument that Manu can only stand out against lesser opponents.

Please quote me where i said he can only stand out against lesser opponents.

You're creating an argument that doesn't exist. Manu can obviously stand out against quality opponents...no one in this thread is denying that. But you are basing your argument around accomplishments he has made (in Europe) against lesser opponents.

Please continue "destroying" me:

1) Dirk is a better player than Manu.
2) Dirk made his legacy in the NBA while Manu did it overseas against lesser talent.
3) Switch Dirk and Manu in 2003 and the Spurs probably have 7-8 les and the Mavs would never have seen the NBA finals.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Manu actually had to go through Dirk *AND* Team USA to get to at least 2 of those Finals. You can't just chalk it up to lesser talent. He has won his good share in the NBA also, making the All Star team and willing his team to a good chunk of wins in the playoffs to capture those 3 championships he has.
While I can't say he was the best player on those teams, you can't say he was not an integral part of any of them. And yeah, I'm including 2003.

He was the best player of the 2005 team no matter what the voters said in the Finals.

[lefty]

LOL at this thread

[ElNono]

And for the record, I'll add that Sabonis is my pick for the best. Petrovic was also great.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

you Gyro. We don't make it there without Manu averaging 20 ppg on all the previous games.

You are just mad because it was exposed you did not even watch the bronze medal game in 2008.

[Findog]

McAdoo also has an NBA MVP. Do they also have NBA MVPs?

Dirk is a much better player than McAdoo was. And point to me where I waved pom poms over Dirk's award?

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Manu only won 1 gold medal as the leader of his team, though no one gives a crap to the Olympics. On the Spurs team, Manu was just the leader of several bench-off players and even Tony Longoria was more of a leader when both of them were on court. Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan were the framework of the Spurs defensive system, which made the entire team so great in defense, but i can't see Manu has done more in this area than any other Spur has.

He won 2 gold medals idiot.

[dirk4mvp]

Does KPB think spanoulis > Dirk?

[Rogue]

You forgot Manu's 3 NBA Championships.
Not to mention Manu can't play the Euros because he's actually not European. And Greek Championships ARE TRASH. That's like me trying to count up Manu's championships in Argentina.

European league hasn't ever legislated any weird rule like prohibiting Americans, Scola has a couple years experience in European league as far as you probably know.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

It's not Manu's fault they didn't brought them in when he was drafted in 1999.
His team won the Euroleague in 2001, and he was the MVP.
Plus Dirk started to show what he got in 2002, the year before Manu showed up in the league.

To be fair though Manu's Euroleague championship and MVP are asterisks. Only half of the teams played in Euroleague that year. The two best teams in Europe in that era did not even play.