name 25 big men defensively better than Dirk

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

“I think Birdman does a good job because he’s so long. He contests my shot. Martin and Nene are stronger and they try to body me more and Birdman’s just long and when I shoot he can still jump up there and contest the shot. So, yeah, they’ve got three very good defenders.”

-Dirk Nowitzki

Barkley, Kenny Smith, and Webber all jumped on him. Kenny even using the word "soft." They felt he should not have said these things and Webber said "Dirk is scared of a defender?"

You can say all you want about the 3 to discredit them, but they are former NBA players, so they more about the game than you or me.

Sounds like Dirk is just giving credit to the Nuggets defense. Since when is showing respect showing weakness? And since when the did the TNT crew become the voice of reason?

[Findog]

“I think Birdman does a good job because he’s so long. He contests my shot. Martin and Nene are stronger and they try to body me more and Birdman’s just long and when I shoot he can still jump up there and contest the shot. So, yeah, they’ve got three very good defenders.”

-Dirk Nowitzki

I don't see anywhere in there where he says he is "scared" of them, he "fears" them, or gives them credit for being able to stop him. Keep in mind, he is talking about guys that he bukakked all over for 35/12/4.

Barkley, Kenny Smith, and Webber all jumped on him.

So? Why should I care what they think? They're doing schtick.

Kenny even using the word "soft."

So? Is Kenny Smith God? Do you wait until he weighs in before you can form an opinion on basketball? Can you think for yourself?

They felt he should not have said these things

Once again, I want to know why I should care what they think.

and Webber said "Dirk is scared of a defender?"

I guess Webber would be a good authority on being scared on a basketball court.

You can say all you want about the 3 to discredit them, but they are former NBA players, so they more about the game than you or me.

Fire Joe Morgan!

Stating what someone else said is not "speaking out of ignorance," just because you disagree with their opinion. Like I said, don't take it out on me.

You said that Dirk was scared and played with fear in the Denver series, based on some harmless boilerplate comments he made to a reporter's question. Not only did Dirk's quote not substantiate your contention, but he averaged 35/12/4. He did not play scared, he did not show fear, and at no point did he express frustation and concede they had stopped him.

Back on topic: I named 27 big men, Kenyon Martin included, who currently are better defenders that Dirk.

You're right, Kenyon Martin is a great defender. He locked Dirk down to the tune of 35/12/4. Anytime you can shut down your man and hold him to 35/12/4, you know you've done your job. You're just not very good at this, are you?

And there are several more that are arguably better. If we look at all time big men, we could easily jump that number to 75-100, but we'll save that for another thread at another time.

Dirk is not a sieve defensively, and the man he is guarding is rarely if ever the reason the Mavs lose.

[Dunc n Dave]

You're right, Kenyon Martin is a great defender. He locked Dirk down to the tune of 35/12/4. Anytime you can shut down your man and hold him to 35/12/4, you know you've done your job. You're just not very good at this, are you?

Bowen has been lit up by Dirk on many occasions. That doesn't mean Bowen isn't a good defender. Same with Michael Cooper vs Larry Bird. Countless people vs. Jordan. Same for Kobe.

There are some guys you just aren;t gong to be able to keep from scoring and Dirk is one of them because of the matchup problems he presents with his size and range.
Put a taller defender on him? He goes by them or shoots the 15 foot fadeaway.
Put a smaller quicker guy on him? He shoots over the top of them.

No one is denying Dirks offensive proficiency. He is a superstar scorer. He just has never been known as even a "good" defender. But don't worry, he's not the only one dimensional superstar the NBA has ever had. He has company.

Dirk scoring 35 on Martin does not mean Martin can't guard anyone.

Kenyon is a better defensive bigman than Dirk.

[Findog]

Bowen has been lit up by Dirk on many occasions. That doesn't mean Bowen isn't a good defender. Same with Michael Cooper vs Larry Bird. Countless people vs. Jordan. Same for Kobe.

I don't see how Dirk would be scared of a guy that makes him look like a Hall of Famer. If I knew I was going to be "guarded" by a guy that was going to "hold" me to 35/12/4, I'd be licking my chops.

No one is denying Dirks offensive proficiency. He is a superstar scorer. He just has never been known as even a "good" defender. Dirk scoring 35 on Martin does not mean Martin can't guard anyone.

He has worked himself into something that approaches adequate. That's why he's a cut above guys like Bosh, Amare and Jefferson. I'd rather have Duncan because he can patrol and control the paint in a way that Dirk can't, but Dirk has become a more complete player than he was earlier in his career under Nellie.

Kenyon is a better defensive bigman than Dirk.

You can probably come up with 50 guys who are technically better interior defenders than Dirk, but I'll sure take a guy that is unguardable on offense and can be adequate within a team defensive scheme over a guy like Kenyon Martin. I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is to denigrate Dirk's D. Seems like "superstars" like Amare or Bosh deserve to be made fun of first for not being able to guard an empty gym.

Dirk has his flaws and is far from perfect, but he's still a top 10 player, whatever his issues on the defensive end. If he played "no defense" whatsoever, he'd be no better than Carlos Boozer or Chris Bosh.

[Rogue]

Bowen has been lit up by Dirk on many occasions. That doesn't mean Bowen isn't a good defender. Same with Michael Cooper vs Larry Bird. Countless people vs. Jordan. Same for Kobe.

There are some guys you just aren;t gong to be able to keep from scoring and Dirk is one of them because of the matchup problems he presents with his size and range.
Put a taller defender on him? He goes by them or shoots the 15 foot fadeaway.
Put a smaller quicker guy on him? He shoots over the top of them.

No one is denying Dirks offensive proficiency. He is a superstar scorer. He just has never been known as even a "good" defender. But don't worry, he's not the only one dimensional superstar the NBA has ever had. He has company.

Dirk scoring 35 on Martin does not mean Martin can't guard anyone.

Kenyon is a better defensive bigman than Dirk.

The best defense is just good offense. If some guy can make his opposing guard working his ass off defending him while still dropping 35/12/4 on him, you know it doesn't cost you any energy to tame him on the other end of floor. It's correct of you to say Dirk is an unstoppable player and gives matchup troubles to anyone guarding him, but it's obviously foolish logic to split a player like the court being divided into 2 by the logo.

[Findog]

If Dirk is so ty at defense and Martin is so much better, how come Dirk put up 35/12/4 in that series while Martin managed 10/4/2? Since Martin is so much better at defense, shouldn't he have lit Dirk up?

[Dunc n Dave]

I don't see how Dirk would be scared of a guy that makes him look like a Hall of Famer. If I knew I was going to be "guarded" by a guy that was going to "hold" me to 35/12/4, I'd be licking my chops.





He has worked himself into something that approaches adequate. That's why he's a cut above guys like Bosh, Amare and Jefferson. I'd rather have Duncan because he can patrol and control the paint in a way that Dirk can't, but Dirk has become a more complete player than he was earlier in his career under Nellie.



You can probably come up with 50 guys who are technically better interior defenders than Dirk, but I'll sure take a guy that is unguardable on offense and can be adequate within a team defensive scheme over a guy like Kenyon Martin. I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is to denigrate Dirk's D. Seems like "superstars" like Amare or Bosh deserve to be made fun of first for not being able to guard an empty gym.

Dirk has his flaws and is far from perfect, but he's still a top 10 player, whatever his issues on the defensive end. If he played "no defense" whatsoever, he'd be no better than Carlos Boozer or Chris Bosh.

I agree Dirk is a better defender tham Amare and Al Jefferson, which is why I did not put them on my list, even as arguably better.

Bosh, though I disagree on. Bosh averaged more rebounds, steals, and blocks than Dirk last year and is a similar player in that he has a mid-range game, although Dirk's is way better. Bosh also averaged 2.8 offensive rebounds (Top 20, better than Duncan, Brand, Yao, Camby, Shaq) to Dirk's 1.1 (tied for #143, even Nate Robinson and Matt Bonner grabbed more).

That's not good for a 7 footer. Oh and we already make fun of Amare. Everyone knows he puts forth ZERO effort on defense.

[Dunc n Dave]

The best defense is just good offense. If some guy can make his opposing guard working his ass off defending him while still dropping 35/12/4 on him, you know it doesn't cost you any energy to tame him on the other end of floor.

That's what the early 90's Nuggets thought under Paul Westhead. The Phoenix Suns also believed that. Amare averaged 30+ vs the Spurs in 2005, but where did that get the Suns? Booted in 5 games...

Dirk averaged 30+ vs the Nuggets and got the same result.

Not that the Nuggets are a defense juggernaut, but DEFENSE wins championships. The last few champs have all been Top 5 defensive teams.

[Findog]

Dirk averaged 30+ vs the Nuggets and got the same result.

. The Nuggets were a much better team than the Mavs last year. Rick Carlisle teaches and emphasizes defense. That's like saying the Spurs don't place an emphasis on defense because the Mavs stomped them in the first round.

[Dunc n Dave]

. The Nuggets were a much better team than the Mavs last year. Rick Carlisle teaches and emphasizes defense. That's like saying the Spurs don't place an emphasis on defense because the Mavs stomped them in the first round.

You are quoting a response I made to Rogue. He said the best defense is a good offense. I thought you Mavs fans learned that wasn't true having Nellie as your coach for so many years of futility. Teams that take on the "to with defense, we're gonna outscore them" at ude never win when it counts, like the Suns under D'Antoni and the Mavs under Don Nelson.

The Spurs had no problem letting Amare average around 35ppg in their 2005 series, as long as it meant the Spurs winning the series. Amare had his moral victory of "OWNING" the Spurs, while the Spurs had their real victory with the Larry O'Brien Trophy.

The point: bragging about Dirk averaging 35pts in a series they lost 4-1 is the equivalent of Amare thinking he's the GOAT for averaging 35pts vs the Spurs... in a series he LOST 4-1. Dirk and Amare had their moral victories. Good for them....

[Dunc n Dave]

If Dirk is so ty at defense and Martin is so much better, how come Dirk put up 35/12/4 in that series while Martin managed 10/4/2? Since Martin is so much better at defense, shouldn't he have lit Dirk up?

So lemme get this straight? You're saying if someone is better at defense they should light up the guy that's guarding them?

Damn.... I guess Bruce Bowen wasn't that great of a defender after all since he RARELY ever lit anyone up...

[j-money24]

Who are the idiots that are saying Gasol is a better defender. Come on people, be realistic.

[Findog]

The point: bragging about Dirk averaging 35pts in a series they lost 4-1 is the equivalent of Amare thinking he's the GOAT for averaging 35pts vs the Spurs... in a series he LOST 4-1. Dirk and Amare had their moral victories. Good for them....

I think we got on this tangent because you said Dirk was "scared" or Kenyon Martin. I don't think it's possible to be scared of a guy you curbstomp to the tune of 35/12/4. Nowhere did I say I was satisfied with the Mavs bowing out in the second round, or Dirk's performance was some form of consolation prize. The Mavs FO doesn't seem to be satisfied with an exit in the semis either, since they brought in Marion, Ross, Thomas and Gooden. Nice manuever to shift the goalposts to support your ever-shifting arguments.

[Findog]

So lemme get this straight? You're saying if someone is better at defense they should light up the guy that's guarding them?

Damn.... I guess Bruce Bowen wasn't that great of a defender after all since he RARELY ever lit anyone up...

So you're saying Kenyon Martin is as offensively challenged as Bruce Bowen? I mean, since Dirk is such a ty defender, you would think a gifted two-way player like Kenyon Martin could do better than 10/4/2, especially with all the other gifted players and offensive threats that the Nuggets have, like Carmelo, JR Smith, Nene, Billups, etc.

[MavDynasty]

Findog is ting on Dunc n Dave in this argument.

[Dunc n Dave]

I think we got on this tangent because you said Dirk was "scared" or Kenyon Martin. I don't think it's possible to be scared of a guy you curbstomp to the tune of 35/12/4. Nowhere did I say I was satisfied with the Mavs bowing out in the second round, or Dirk's performance was some form of consolation prize. The Mavs FO doesn't seem to be satisfied with an exit in the semis either, since they brought in Marion, Ross, Thomas and Gooden. Nice manuever to shift the goalposts to support your ever-shifting arguments.

I was just repeating what the TNT talking heads said about Dirk. Obviously he doesn't go to bed at night fearing Kenyon Martin will come in the room and butt rape him. So yeah, you're right, his performance in that series OFFENSIVELY says otherwise about him being scared.

And good for the Mavs for trying to improve their team, but if Carlisle has so much pull and makes defense his #1 priority why are the Mavs stacking up on offensive weapons (with the exception of Ross who is a good defender) when they already had more weapons than most? I know they tried for Gortat, but they settle on Thomas and Gooden and let Bass go?

But this thread is about naming 25 bigmen who are better DEFENSIVELY than Dirk, and Kenyon is one of those. WGAF about Kenyon's offensive ability vs Dirk? That's your tangent. I can't stand Kenyon Martin and his wanna-be thug at ude, but it still doesn't change the fact that he is a better defender than Dirk, along with Bosh. You can try to twist my words anyway you like, but it still won't make Dirk a better defender than Martin or Bosh.

[dirk4mvp]

lol Bosh

you're reaching.

[Findog]

I was just repeating what the TNT talking heads said about Dirk. Obviously he doesn't go to bed at night fearing Kenyon Martin will come in the room and butt rape him. So yeah, you're right, his performance in that series OFFENSIVELY says otherwise about him being scared.

Okay, so you finally conceded the TNT guys were full of and Dirk is not afraid of Kenyon Martin. We're getting somewhere.

And good for the Mavs for trying to improve their team, but if Carlisle has so much pull and makes defense his #1 priority why are the Mavs stacking up on offensive weapons (with the exception of Ross who is a good defender) when they already had more weapons than most? I know they tried for Gortat, but they settle on Thomas and Gooden and let Bass go?

Marion isn't a good defender? I don't think we're favorites... , we'll be lucky to get back to the second round with the new faces. In this league, if you're not getting better, you're getting worse. There is no standing still. They have to improve just to maintain what they did last year.

But this thread is about naming 25 bigmen who are better DEFENSIVELY than Dirk, and Kenyon is one of those. WGAF about Kenyon's offensive ability vs Dirk? That's your tangent. I can't stand Kenyon Martin and his wanna-be thug at ude, but it still doesn't change the fact that he is a better defender than Dirk, along with Bosh. You can try to twist my words anyway you like, but it still won't make Dirk a better defender than Martin or Bosh.

I don't disagree with any of that. Looks like we have nothing to debate anymore, since you conceded that the TNT guys were just doing schtick and Dirk isn't afraid of Kenyon Martin.

[Dunc n Dave]

So you're saying Kenyon Martin is as offensively challenged as Bruce Bowen? I mean, since Dirk is such a ty defender, you would think a gifted two-way player like Kenyon Martin could do better than 10/4/2, especially with all the other gifted players and offensive threats that the Nuggets have, like Carmelo, JR Smith, Nene, Billups, etc.

Who said Kenyon was a gifted two way player? Definitely not me. There you go trying to twist my words to discredit me. And you talk about ME shifting the goalposts? Pot, meet kettle.

Martin needs others to create shots for him off alley oops or transition buckets. He is far from gifted offensively. Better than Bruce offensively? Without a doubt. All of the other Nuggets you mentioned are better offensively than Kenyon, so obviously Kenyon won't be lighting anyone up when he only averaged 7 shot attempts per game in the Dallas series. If you put Dirk on the weakest offensive threat on the floor you can't claim a defensive victory for holding him to 10 points. He scored 9.8 vs the Hornets and 12 vs the Lakers.


I also never said Dirk was a " ty defender," but you Mavs fans hear what you want to hear. Amare is a ty defender, but Dirk is not. I said he has never even been considered a good defender, let alone great. He is average, at best, for a big man on defense, which is why people have no trouble coming up with 25+ other bigmen who are better defenders. It's OK for Dirk to not be perfect. He's still unstoppable on the offensive end, be happy about that. Duncan still has FT's as a weakness, but Spurs fans accept it and move on.

[Dunc n Dave]

lol Bosh

you're reaching.

Compare the stats for the 2.

Bosh wins in Off Rebounds, total Rebounds, Steals, and blocks. Defensively: Bosh>Dirk

[Dunc n Dave]

Findog is ting on Dunc n Dave in this argument.

Says the unbiased Mavs fan...

[dirk4mvp]

Compare the stats for the 2.

Bosh wins in Off Rebounds, total Rebounds, Steals, and blocks. Defensively: Bosh>Dirk

Those stats prove who is a better defender?

[Dunc n Dave]

Those stats prove who is a better defender?

They prove Bosh is a better shot blocker, plays the passing lanes better, rebounds better, and crashes the boards better. All are key components of beign a good defensive bigman.

Are there other factors? Sure, but they aren't measured, so we can debate those until the cows come home, but it won't change either of our opinions. The stats, however, don't lie. Bosh was Top 20 in offensive rebounds, Dirk was #140 getting out boarded by Matt Bonner and Nate Robinson on the offensive glass.

You can disagree with me, but the MEASURABLE stats favor my opinion on this one.

[resistanze]

Bosh isn't a terrible defender, but he's weak/soft as . He just gets outmuscled in the post regularly. He'd be a better defender than Dirk and a lot of other guys if he ate a ing burger.

[Rodriguez]

Says the unbiased Mavs fan...

You should have known it's not kind of praise when someone is said to be ting on you.