The Second Banana: Dirk vs. Manu

[VivaPopovich]

Manu. It's best to have a good small-big combo not big-big combo

Outside shooting and dribble penetration frees up Timmy inside and vice versa, whereas with Dirk and Timmy you just have two big men so all you got to do is clog the paint

[Findog]

What does Tony Parker have to do with anything?

I said Manu couldn't make a Finals as a #1 guy. You then brought up his near Finals MVP award in 2005? So what does that have to do with anything? Tony Parker won Finals MVP in 2007, but nobody would say he was the Spurs best player that year.

The point is, you could make a case for Manu as finals MVP in 2005.

No, you can't make a case for Manu being the 05 Finals MVP. Duncan was. And Manu's play in the 05 Finals does not negate the fact that Dirk is a much better player, and can lead his team to the final round while Manu couldn't get out of the first round as a #1 guy.

Whereas you could make a case for Dirk as biggest choker in the league.

Dirk has two clutch plays for every clutch play Manu has made. And if Dirk is indeed a choker, then so is Manu:

In fact, the best player in today's game(LeBron), says olympic gold is more important to him than an NBA championship.

And if you believe that, you're pretty naive. Like I said, Dirk leading a bunch of scrubs to qualify for the Olympics is just as impressive as Manu winning the Gold with a stacked Argentine squad. Just as Kobe leading a scrub Laker team to the playoffs in 06 and nearly toppling the Suns is as impressive as what he did this year when he won a le with a stacked team. I mean, Robert Horry has 7 rings, is clutch and played good defense, so obviously in his prime he was a much better player than Dirk.

[Findog]

Since you edited your argument, I'll respond to this as well... with: LOL. You have a lot of excuses. But you can't change facts. Manu has the hardware. Dirk doesn't. End of story.

Manu has a bunch of minor-league hardware. Dirk went to play with the big boys. Why should I care what Alex Rodriguez did in Double A?

[timtonymanurich]

Lucky for the Spurs that Pop and Buford run the team and not you. They'd trade Manu for Dirk in a heartbeat.

^^^^

I answer this conundrum by stating NO FREAKING WAY would that trade ever get past the assistant coaches of Popovich let alone to the FO!!! This because of evidence of the MONSTROSITY of a choke in the 1st round in to GS AND to the Monster Choke in the Finals to the Heat. That "foul" Manu was called for on Dork by the way in the final seconds of OT in game 7 of the WCSF was pure crap. Hand is part of the ball!!

Manu has been a huge part of why SA has 3 out of their 4 rings and Dirk is the reason Dallas has NONE!!!

Next time you have another thought, let it go....

[Findog]

Opinion.

Every scout, every General Manager and every coach would say Dirk is a much better player than Manu and every owner would pick Dirk over Manu in a hypothetical draft.

It shows that he gets it done on the highest level.

It shows he does his job well as a #2 guy.

It's hard to be the best player when you're playing with the best player of all-time at his position.

There's about 30 guys in this league that are better players than Manu.

The vote was extremely close and Manu supporters would say Tim got it because of his body of work.

I'm the one with excuses? Duncan is the Spurs best player; Manu and TP are good players in their own right whose jobs are made easier by Duncan. Deal with it.

You sure have a lot of opinions. I'm not seeing any evidence.

Dirk > Manu is true on its face and every coach, GM and scout would agree with me. If they swap places in 2003, the Spurs have 3 championships, if not more, while the Mavs would've been lucky to win a playoff series. I'm sorry you have a psychological need to not accept reality.

One series (and the biggest upset of all-time) > one play.

It's interesting to see a Spurs fan denigrate Dirk and his ability to come through in the clutch. Dirk played very well in the Finals; Wade was simply better. Wade is a better player than Dirk, so no shame in that. Nobody remembers Dirk's clutch runner over Shaq before Wade got bailed out by Salvatore, or the fact that Dirk put up 29/15 in Game 6. And if the Spurs get to whine and complain about Timmy not being 100% when the Spurs go fishing, why are Dallas fans not allowed to bring up the fact that Dirk was hurt against Golden State and still managed to put up 19/10 a game?

Not even close. And Oberto/Scola/Nocioni is a stacked team? ROFL. Who was on the US team that they beat again??? Can you name me their top players?

Those are all NBA players that had played years together on the NT developing chemistry and continuity...and they went up against NBA players under FIBA rules. If the Argentinian NT were granted admission to the NBA as the 31st franchise, they'd struggle adapting to NBA rules. Have you even seen Dirk's national team through the years? They couldn't hold the court at a 24 Hour Fitness.

[Findog]

^^^^

I answer this conundrum by stating NO FREAKING WAY would that trade ever get past the assistant coaches of Popovich let alone to the FO!!! This because of evidence of the MONSTROSITY of a choke in the 1st round in to GS AND to the Monster Choke in the Finals to the Heat. That "foul" Manu was called for on Dork by the way in the final seconds of OT in game 7 of the WCSF was pure crap. Hand is part of the ball!!

Manu has been a huge part of why SA has 3 out of their 4 rings and Dirk is the reason Dallas has NONE!!!

Next time you have another thought, let it go....

Quoted Verbatim. No rebuttal necessary.

[Findog]

If we accept the premise that Manu is a better player than Dirk, then that means the Spurs have 3 of the top 4 players when the Spurs and Mavs meet. How the do the Mavs keep winning then? Either you have to prop up Josh and Terry as All Stars or accept the fact that your top players choke against Dallas.

[Findog]

Everyone scout and general manager in the league passed up on Manu in the draft as well. Some of them twice.

There's a reason Dirk went 9th overall as an 18 year old and the Mavs wanted him over here immediately instead of stashing him in Europe...whereas Manu needed 3 years of additional seasoning in Europe to hone his game.

I'd challenge you to find 30 players with a better resume.

Better resume? What is a resume? Joe Johnson is a better player than Manu. You swap him out for Manu beginning in 2003 and the Spurs still win 3 les, just as the Hawks continue to be mediocre in the East. Not every player gets to be paired up alongside the greatest PF and pick up 3 rings in the process.

I'm hardly making excuses. I'm being objective. You should try it.

Yes, objectively leads one to the conclusion that Manu > Dirk.

Chris Kaman >>>> Scola, Oberto, Nocioni

. He's a lumbering stiff with Bill Walton feet. How much time did he spend practicing with the German NT before Olympic trials began?

[Findog]

If Manu > Dirk, then Manu, Tim and Tony choke constantly against the Mavs...either that or Josh Howard and Jason Terry deserve to be named to an All-NBA team.

[DAF86]

If we accept the premise that Manu is a better player than Dirk, then that means the Spurs have 3 of the top 4 players when the Spurs and Mavs meet. How the do the Mavs keep winning then? Either you have to prop up Josh and Terry as All Stars or accept the fact that your top players choke against Dallas.

I'm not saying that Manu > Dirk right now, I'm not even saying that Manu NBA career > Dirk NBA career (with the three rings and all). I'm saying Manu on his prime > Dirk on his prime, it's my opininon from seeing the best of both guys on their careers. And no, I don't consider Parker to be better than Manu or Dirk on their primes (even though we may just be starting to see the best of Tony), I do consider Tony and Dirk to be better than Manu right now.

And there's also this little thing about the matchups, how do you explain LA losing always against the Bobcats or SA against Milwuakee?

[Findog]

I'm saying Manu on his prime > Dirk on his prime, it's my opininon from seeing the best of both guys on their careers.

Agree to vehemently disagree. Manu's prime was, what, 2005-2007? Seems like that was when he was at his best. Dirk's prime I think was around the same time. There's just no way the Mavs can keep getting the better of the Spurs if San Antonio has TWO franchise players (Duncan for sure, Manu by your calculations) and keep getting beat by a team that doesn't have one (omitting Dirk by your calculations).

And there's also this little thing about the matchups, how do you explain LA losing always against the Bobcats or SA against Milwuakee?

It would take a playoff series to determine how much validity there is to the Bobcats and Bucks owning their respective teams.

[ohmwrecker]

Everyone has gotten way off track here. The original question is: Who would be a better "2nd banana" to Duncan, Manu or Dirk? You guys are arguing who the better player is or which one is a franchise player.

It's my opinion that Manu compliments Duncan's game better. If everyone admits that Duncan and Nowitzki are both franchise players and both are 7 ft post players with a similar skill set, it would seem like one of those player's game would suffer. Manu, on the other hand, has a vastly different skill set than Duncan and, therefore, compliments and inhances Duncan's game.

It's all pretty subjective anyway, but you guys should stay on topic if you're going to argue for 13 pages.

[weebo]

There's about 30 guys in this league that are better players than Manu.

...and 31 better than dirk

[Findog]

Everyone has gotten way off track here. The original question is: Who would be a better "2nd banana" to Duncan, Manu or Dirk? You guys are arguing who the better player is or which one is a franchise player.

It's my opinion that Manu compliments Duncan's game better. If everyone admits that Duncan and Nowitzki are both franchise players and both are 7 ft post players with a similar skill set, it would seem like one of those player's game would suffer. Manu, on the other hand, has a vastly different skill set than Duncan and, therefore, compliments and inhances Duncan's game.

It's all pretty subjective anyway, but you guys should stay on topic if you're going to argue for 13 pages.

No, people understood perfectly what the question is. Dirk plays like a shooting guard more than a traditional big. You're basically saying two franchise guys can't coexist. Shaq and Kobe did long enough to win three les together, and both Tim and Dirk don't have the egos and turf mentality that those two guys did. There's no way you can tell me the Spurs would've been better off with 1 franchise guy and 1 fringe All Star instead of two franchise guys. There's any number of serviceable players they could've found to play the 2 guard while slotting Dirk alongside Tim.

[Findog]

...and 31 better than dirk

No, there's only 4 guys that are unquestionably better players than Dirk. There's quite a few more I would take if I were a GM because of contract/age, but I can only think of 4 that I would definitely take over Dirk if I needed to win a game tomorrow.

[weebo]

Kobe, Lebron, Dwade, DHoward, CP3...those are just five off the top of my head that are better than dirk and you say there's only 4 guys 'unquestionably' better than dirk...LOL get real!!

[benefactor]

e better player is or which one is a franchise player. Everyone has gotten way off track here. The original question is: Who would be a better "2nd banana" to Duncan, Manu or Dirk? You guys are arguing who th

It's my opinion that Manu compliments Duncan's game better. If everyone admits that Duncan and Nowitzki are both franchise players and both are 7 ft post players with a similar skill set, it would seem like one of those player's game would suffer. Manu, on the other hand, has a vastly different skill set than Duncan and, therefore, compliments and inhances Duncan's game.

It's all pretty subjective anyway, but you guys should stay on topic if you're going to argue for 13 pages.

Just saying things to make yourself sound like you know what you are talking about still makes you look foolish. You are embarrassing us. Stop please.

[Nathan Explosion]

^^^^

I answer this conundrum by stating NO FREAKING WAY would that trade ever get past the assistant coaches of Popovich let alone to the FO!!! This because of evidence of the MONSTROSITY of a choke in the 1st round in to GS AND to the Monster Choke in the Finals to the Heat. That "foul" Manu was called for on Dork by the way in the final seconds of OT in game 7 of the WCSF was pure crap. Hand is part of the ball!!

Manu has been a huge part of why SA has 3 out of their 4 rings and Dirk is the reason Dallas has NONE!!!

Next time you have another thought, let it go....

There's no way that the trade gets past the assistant coaches, that is true. But that's only because the coaches would have free reign to accept the trade before Dallas finishes proposing it.

Manu lovers are making us objective Spurs fans look really bad right now. Us Spurs fans are far from Mavs lovers, let alone fans. But any objective fan of any NBA team can see that Dirk would make the Spurs nearly ubeatable. In fact, if you threw out the "prime stipulation" and put Dirk and Tim together, TODAY, they formed the best frontline in the league hands down.

Put the prime stipulation back in and you have the greatest PF to ever play the game paired with one of the best shooters the league has ever seen, who also happens to be 7 ft tall and can shoot over anyone and score from anywhere on the court.

As for people claiming the Spurs couldn't run pick and roll, the wouldn't need to. All they would have to do is put Dirk at the top of the key, use him as a screener for Parker, from which Parker can dish off or take advantage of the mismatch. You'd have Dirk being guarded by a guy almost a foot shorter than him and Parker guarded by a guy who couldn't keep Parker in front of him even if Parker tells him where he's going on the court and when.

Throw in that the help would have to come off a 3 point shooter or Tim in the block and the Spurs offense would be nearly unguardable.

[Findog]

Kobe, Lebron, Dwade, DHoward, CP3...those are just five off the top of my head that are better than dirk and you say there's only 4 guys 'unquestionably' better than dirk...LOL get real!!

Bron, Wade, Kobe and Duncan are unquestionably better. Paul and Howard are arguably better. Maybe Howard and Paul will pass Dirk this year, but based off last year you could make a case for Dirk or you could make a case for Paul or Howard being more valuable to their teams. At best Dirk is a top five player. At worst he is a top ten player. Manu is a top thirty player.

[ohmwrecker]

Just saying things to make yourself sound like you know what you are talking about still makes you look foolish. You are embarrassing us. Stop please.

What are you saying? Do you have a point or are you just being a ?

I gave valid answer to a subjective question and even stated that it's my opinion . . . what the is it to you?

[benefactor]

There's no way that the trade gets past the assistant coaches, that is true. But that's only because the coaches would have free reign to accept the trade before Dallas finishes proposing it.

Manu lovers are making us objective Spurs fans look really bad right now. Us Spurs fans are far from Mavs lovers, let alone fans. But any objective fan of any NBA team can see that Dirk would make the Spurs nearly ubeatable. In fact, if you threw out the "prime stipulation" and put Dirk and Tim together, TODAY, they formed the best frontline in the league hands down.

Put the prime stipulation back in and you have the greatest PF to ever play the game paired with one of the best shooters the league has ever seen, who also happens to be 7 ft tall and can shoot over anyone and score from anywhere on the court.

As for people claiming the Spurs couldn't run pick and roll, the wouldn't need to. All they would have to do is put Dirk at the top of the key, use him as a screener for Parker, from which Parker can dish off or take advantage of the mismatch. You'd have Dirk being guarded by a guy almost a foot shorter than him and Parker guarded by a guy who couldn't keep Parker in front of him even if Parker tells him where he's going on the court and when.

Throw in that the help would have to come off a 3 point shooter or Tim in the block and the Spurs offense would be nearly unguardable.

And logic wins in straight sets. As I said before, it's not rocket science.

[Kermit]

I'm not going to read this thread. Just a quick yes or no question...

Are people actually trying to argue that Manu is a better basketball player than Dirk?

[diego]

I didnt bother to read the whole thread, but to me this is easy:

bigs > guards, dirk shoots and rebounds better and bottom line those are the key production categories. dirk 1, manu 0

fit is important, 5 Lebrons will lose to a well constructed team of lesser players. unless you make other changes to accomodate these guys, both the mavs and the spurs would be worse in a straight up trade. so without those extra moves, i think manu fits with Tim better, just like kobe fit well with Shaq (ballhandling, setup game, inside out, etc). dirk 1, manu 1.

contract- for a 2nd banana you dont want to overpay, manu is a much better deal. dirk 1, manu 2

health- dirk's game lends itself to more minutes and therefore more production
dirk 2, manu 2.

intangible- agression and determination make big differences and IMO Manu is not as skilled a player as Dirk, but he is much more compe ive. When Dirk is shooting fadeaways, manu is going hard to the cup, even if it means taking- or dishing- some pain. dirk 2, manu 3.

NOW, if the question were who is the better franchise player I go with Dirk. If the question is totally ignoring player salaries, I go with Dirk. and if the team can make other moves to round out the roster, I go with Dirk. but if I'm taking the 05 spurs and replacing manu with 07 dirk:

manu >>>>>>> brent barry
dirk >>>>> robert horry

manu makes more of a difference for that team (and I chose that team because i think it was the best of the duncan+manu le teams). thats how I understood the question and my answer. If its not clear enough, i still think Dirk is the more skilled, more valuable player.


and finally... for those that keep on using manu's game 7 foul in their argument. right after that Dirk fouled tim at the end of tha game and the refs swallowed their whistles. had they called it, we would be talking about what an idiot dirk is for fouling a tie game with milliseconds left on the clock.

[benefactor]

What are you saying? Do you have a point or are you just being a ?

I gave valid answer to a subjective question and even stated that it's my opinion . . . what the is it to you?

Your opinion sucks and is completely false. Duncan and Dirk's games together make them about 10 times as deadly as Duncan and Manu.

[Nathan Explosion]

I'm not one for hyperbole, but putting Tim and Dirk together would form one of the greatest duos to ever play the game. And that's not even up for debate.