The Second Banana: Dirk vs. Manu

[LionZion]

So, in an extreme case, it is reasonable to say that putting in Dwayne Wade instead of Brent Barry could not have improved the Spurs, because it's pure conjecture?

Lol, what is your point? Like you said its an extreme case with more obvious possible results. So Manu vs Dirk is an obvious result?

[DAF86]

Holy Manu has 89 votes, damn I wish this was public.

he would have less than 89 votes if it was public

Many of the Dirk's votes are Bump's trolls.

[DAF86]

So, in an extreme case, it is reasonable to say that putting in Dwayne Wade instead of Brent Barry could not have improved the Spurs, because it's pure conjecture?

Nowitzki isn't Wade and Ginobili isn't Barry. Are you really a Spurs fan?

[Findog]

Really people you can't do much better than 3 championships in 6 years. You know how difficult it is to win a championship? you need everysingle thing to go your way, one thing that doesn't go your way and that's it you go home.

You put Dirk on the Spurs in that time frame and one of their biggest obstacles to winning a le (Dallas Mavericks) is removed.

[DAF86]

You put Dirk on the Spurs in that time frame and one of their biggest obstacles to winning a le (Dallas Mavericks) is removed.

But the Spurs may have not beaten their main obstacule (Lakers) in 2003, the year that started all. Manu was great on that series and Dirk wasn't the player he is now. And without that first win over the Lakers you never know what may have happened (like pretty much everything that was exposed in this thread, you can't know 'cause is all expeculation)

[ambchang]

Lol, what is your point? Like you said its an extreme case with more obvious possible results. So Manu vs Dirk is an obvious result?

But my point is consistent with your "conjecture" argument. What is the difference in this case? Why is the result deemed obvious? Because you said so? Why is not Manu vs. Dirk allowed to be obvious? Who makes that call? You do? If so, why?

All I know is, Dwayne Wade never played on the Spurs with Tim Duncan, but Barry did. Barry won 2 championships playing for the Spurs, Wade won 0 championships playing for the Spurs. The extension is exactly the same as what you have stated in the Dirk vs. Manu argument.

[ambchang]

Nowitzki isn't Wade and Ginobili isn't Barry. Are you really a Spurs fan?

Thanks for the revelation. I would never have discovered that Nowitzki isn't Wade and Ginobili isn't Barry. Oh wait, I did, I stated the "extreme case", which was to illustrate that educated guesses could be made under certain cir stances.

What does this have to do with me really being a Spurs fan? You mean that I should be against any moves that could possibly improve the Spurs, and just going with what had happen is the model of being a Spurs fan? Are you saying that being a Spurs fan means that the I should never argue a player on another team is better than those on the Spurs?

[LionZion]

But my point is consistent with your "conjecture" argument. What is the difference in this case? Why is the result deemed obvious? Because you said so? Why is not Manu vs. Dirk allowed to be obvious? Who makes that call? You do? If so, why?

All I know is, Dwayne Wade never played on the Spurs with Tim Duncan, but Barry did. Barry won 2 championships playing for the Spurs, Wade won 0 championships playing for the Spurs. The extension is exactly the same as what you have stated in the Dirk vs. Manu argument.

You qualified the comparison yourself as "extreme". So I would say, because you said so. And really, you want me to tell you why Wade vs Barry is not the same as Manu vs Dirk?

[ambchang]

But the Spurs may have not beaten their main obstacule (Lakers) in 2003, the year that started all. Manu was great on that series and Dirk wasn't the player he is now. And without that first win over the Lakers you never know what may have happened (like pretty much everything that was exposed in this thread, you can't know 'cause is all expeculation)

Manu was a rookie averaging around 10ppg in the playoffs, Nowitzki was a 5-year veteran avearging 25 ppg in the regular season and 23 ppg in the playoffs. Sure Manu supplied a lot of the fire, passion and various intangibles in 03, but it would be pretty safe to say that the Spurs would have won in 03 with Dirk instead of Manu.

[DAF86]

Thanks for the revelation. I would never have discovered that Nowitzki isn't Wade and Ginobili isn't Barry. Oh wait, I did, I stated the "extreme case", which was to illustrate that educated guesses could be made under certain cir stances.

What does this have to do with me really being a Spurs fan? You mean that I should be against any moves that could possibly improve the Spurs, and just going with what had happen is the model of being a Spurs fan? Are you saying that being a Spurs fan means that the I should never argue a player on another team is better than those on the Spurs?

You can definitely say that a Dirk/Manu at their primes swap would benefit the Spurs. I said what I said because of the Wade/Barry thing but I guess I read that wrong.

[DPG21920]

But my point is consistent with your "conjecture" argument. What is the difference in this case? Why is the result deemed obvious? Because you said so? Why is not Manu vs. Dirk allowed to be obvious? Who makes that call? You do? If so, why?

All I know is, Dwayne Wade never played on the Spurs with Tim Duncan, but Barry did. Barry won 2 championships playing for the Spurs, Wade won 0 championships playing for the Spurs. The extension is exactly the same as what you have stated in the Dirk vs. Manu argument.

He/She does not get it at all.

[ambchang]

You qualified the comparison yourself as "extreme". So I would say, because you said so. And really, you want me to tell you why Wade vs Barry is not the same as Manu vs Dirk?

But the logic is the same. Why would conjecture not apply in this situation?

[La Peace]

I'd take Dirk

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Dirk.

[leo_d]

Manu is a winner.

He even wins against comon sense in this poll.
Manu 50,2
Dirk 49,7

[benefactor]

If you have data on how a prime Manu plays as a team leader on a decent team, or how good a prime Dirk is as second banana on a playoff contender, please do tell. For the rest, its pure conjecture. We can make informed decisions, when there is information. Otherwise, its called a leap of faith. Which is what our up coming season is btw.

This entire thread is based on unknowns...but isn't most player evaluation? When a FO is looking to trade for a player they are thinking about that players game and how it will impact their roster. They have no idea if it will work or not, but they take the information available to them and make an educated guess. That is what this thread is about...and why and arguments like "we don't know what Dirk would be as a second banana" and "we don't know what prime Manu would be as a team leader" are pointless.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Manu was great on that series and Dirk wasn't the player he is now.

Wtf, Manu's series high was 17 points......maybe he was good, but it wasn't some spectacular performance or anything.

[ohmwrecker]

This entire thread is based on unknowns...but isn't most player evaluation? When a FO is looking to trade for a player they are thinking about that players game and how it will impact their roster. They have no idea if it will work or not, but they take the information available to them and make an educated guess. That is what this thread is about...and why and arguments like "we don't know what Dirk would be as a second banana" and "we don't know what prime Manu would be as a team leader" are pointless.

Pointless? Well, . Everyone agrees that Nowitzki is the better player. Maybe that should have been the original question. Isn't this whole discussion kind of pointless?

[benefactor]

Pointless? Well, . Everyone agrees that Nowitzki is the better player. Maybe that should have been the original question. Isn't this whole discussion kind of pointless?

The discussion was started to get Spur fan to think with his mind and not his heart. Unfortunately this failed horribly.

[ohmwrecker]

The discussion was started to get Spur fan to think with his mind and not his heart. Unfortunately this failed horribly.

It's a debate you goofy bas . That's what you do. You pick a side and you argue that point. You don't even have to believe it to debate it. Mind and heart are equally useful tools in a debate. Insulting the intelligence of your opponents is amateur and juvenile.

It's like you threw a party and then proceeded to act like an asshole when the guests arrived. You pissed in the punchbowl, dude.

[benefactor]

It's a debate you goofy bas . That's what you do. You pick a side and you argue that point. You don't even have to believe it to debate it. Mind and heart are equally useful tools in a debate. Insulting the intelligence of your opponents is amateur and juvenile.

It's like you threw a party and then proceeded to act like an asshole when the guests arrived. You pissed in the punchbowl, dude.

Dirk is better. This isn't really debatable.

[ohmwrecker]

Dirk is better. This isn't really debatable.

We finally agree!

[DAF86]

Wtf, Manu's series high was 17 points......maybe he was good, but it wasn't some spectacular performance or anything.

Manu's points never make justice to the player he is or the imprint he leaves on a game.

[benefactor]

We finally agree!

It's been fun though, hasn't it?

[ElNono]

The discussion was started to get Spur fan to think with his mind and not his heart. Unfortunately this failed horribly.