The Second Banana: Dirk vs. Manu

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

It's been fun though, hasn't it?

[benefactor]

Here's lookin' at you, kid.

[diego]

His team just made the 2nd round. It's no longer a crappy team. It's safe to say that if Manu was on that team instead of JJ it wouldn't have made the 2nd round.

the 2nd round in the east, against a philly team whose best player was out injured and was led by Igoudala and Andre Miller. Joe posted 17.1 ppg 4.4 reb, 3.1 ast, and 1 spg on .415 and .435 from 3... and ended his playoffs with 16.4 ppg / 4.5 rpg / 3.5 ast, 1.3 stl and .417 / .343

fact- Josh Smith led the hawks in scoring and mike bibby led them in assists. the only notable category joe led them in was minutes played, by less than 2 minutes over smith.

this hawks team also has solid role players most spurs fans would trade straight up for the ones we had in 07/08, the last season manu played meaningful minutes- wouldn't you take horford over bonner? pachulia over oberto? williams over finley? murray over udoka?

all this said, the hawks finished 08/09 47-35, philly 41-41. when was the last time the spurs played a 41 win team in the playoffs? even as the first seed? would you bet on the hawks making it past the 2nd round in the next 5 years? how about just getting past the 1st in the next 5 years? that would be a stupid bet because the only way they could make it is if they get favorable matchups, or another "franchise player"

joe johnson has been to one all star game, as a reserve, same as manu. unlike manu, no all-nba teams.

as far as I know, no MVP press like manu got in the 07/08 season. JJ led his team in scoring? so did Manu in 07/08. are you telling me teams were game planning on the spurs' 2nd and 3rd scorers and that the plan was to "let manu get his"? what are the chances teams did the same with JJ, gameplanning for smith instead? I dont know, but that sounds like a stupid argument. and anyone who has watched the spurs from 05-08 knows manu is the spurs closer. its not like he is a third option that doesnt get the ball when it matters (in fact, most clutch stats had him scoring in the kobe/lebron/dirk tier in the last 5 minutes of a game). and its probably a safe bet that the spurs pace was much lower than the hawks, probably in any season from 2000 onward.

really, the biggest thing JJ has on manu is minutes played and durability. and while that is certainly valuable for a franchise player, I'm not seeing anything that makes it so safe to assume manu would be unable to lead a team with smith, bibby, pachulia horford and williams over a sixers team with iguodala, miller, young and dalembert.

oh, and since we all love stats and the playoffs is what matters:
JJ career playoff stats:
37.1 mpg / .423 FG / .417 3FG / 15.8 ppg / 4.3 reb / 3.2 ast / .9 spg
manu career playoff stats:
30.8 mpg / .443 FG / .380 3FG / 16.0 ppg / 4.8 reb / 3.5 ast / 1.4 spg

manu does everything better except for shooting 3s in 6 minutes less.
and manu's best numbers (04-05, 05-06, 07-08) were the seasons he played the most minutes (33.6, 32.8, 32.9, respectively, with 04-05 being the best)

anyways, I'm done wasting time talking about JJ, a guy only butt hurt suns fans will remember 10 years from now. manu on the other hand will be remembered by suns fans, pistons fans, sonics fans, cavs fans, laker fans, etc etc well beyond that.


*and I didnt even mention the fact that manu is the protagonist of one of the greatest basketball feats of all time, knocking out the dream team, twice, at home in Indy and again at the Athens Olympics.

so yes, in my humble opinion it is extremely stupid to suggest that joe johnson is in a separte tier from manu ginobili because he scored 25ppg with a good % on a crappy team. comparable? sure, you can argue, there are enough similarities and unknowns to make arguments. but the numbers show that, even if manu lost efficiency with a whopping 6 more minutes, his numbers would still be on track with JJ's if not better.

[benefactor]

It wasn't a complete loss though. DAF86 still managed to become the white girl in this hotel of a thread while Kobe Bryant posters checked in and out all night long.

[urunobili]

It wasn't a complete loss though. DAF86 still managed to become the white girl in this hotel of a thread while Kobe Bryant posters checked in and out all night long.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

the 2nd round in the east, against a philly team whose best player was out injured and was led by Igoudala and Andre Miller.

Brah I didn't know the Hawks played the 76ers in the playoffs last year.

[Nathan Explosion]

But the Spurs may have not beaten their main obstacule (Lakers) in 2003, the year that started all. Manu was great on that series and Dirk wasn't the player he is now. And without that first win over the Lakers you never know what may have happened (like pretty much everything that was exposed in this thread, you can't know 'cause is all expeculation)

Not a chance. The Spurs won against the Lakers in 2003 because Duncan owned all that year. He was, HANDS DOWN, the best player in the game and proved it again and again that playoffs, culminating in a near quadruple-double in the clinching game of the Finals.

[Nathan Explosion]

Brah I didn't know the Hawks played the 76ers in the playoffs last year.

That would be because they didn't play. The Sixers played the Magic. But you already knew that, didn't you.

I think the other poster meant the year before.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think the other poster meant the year before.

Really brah, I didn't know the Hawks played the 76ers a year ago either

[Nathan Explosion]

Really brah, I didn't know the Hawks played the 76ers a year ago either

I went back to 2007 and they still didn't meet. I never realized that. I wonder what he was talking about then?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I wonder what he was talking about then?

if I know.

[Nathan Explosion]

if I know.

I guess it was a good thing I never bothered to read the entire post past the first 2 sentences then.

[redzero]

Is this a serious question? Dirk > Manu by faaaaaaar.

[Blackjack]

Dirk is better. This isn't really debatable.

Well, it only took 27 pages to find out this thread was nothing more than a sharp stick to Spurs fans.

[benefactor]

Well, it only took 27 pages to find out this thread was nothing more than a sharp stick to Spurs fans.

Yeah...it was a bit a of a bait thread. I commend you for being one of the few to make some good arguments for Manu though. At least you weren't saying things like "Well, Manu has been successful with Duncan and we don't know what Dirk would be because they never played together."

[diego]

Brah I didn't know the Hawks played the 76ers in the playoffs last year.

eh, too much weed to remember the irrelevant PO teams out east. point still stands, I barely talked about the sixers. the heat amazingly enough won 2 more games than the sixers despite having an incredibly inexperienced team, starters, reserves, even the coach.

so i guess in your re ed logic johnson > wade as a franchise player, because wade has injury problems and hasnt made it past the 1st round in years, right? mr reliable ftw!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

eh, too much weed to remember the irrelevant PO teams out east.

Is this code for you didn't know what you were talking about?

[easy7]

So we all agree that Dirk is a second banana to Duncan. Even if they both play on different teams.

[Sportstudi]

As a fiercely loyal Spurs fan (they are my favorite team in all of sports after all), I have to point out that this argument is full of fail. The problem with this argument, besides the obvious that Payton and Malone were past their primes is that fact that they had nothing to do with the Lakers failing to win the le.

The Lakers lost because of Shaq and Kobe's inability to coexist any longer (check the stats- Kobe 22 ppg 31% shooting, Shaq 26 ppg 63% shooting), not with any chemistry problems caused by Payton and Malone.

Dirk and Duncan both have personalities that lend themselves to working with each other.

What Manu fans are failing to understand is that you can be a loyal sports fan without losing objectivity. I'm a Spurs fan. But anyone but a BLIND homer can see that Dirk is a better player than Gino in this argument. Dirk provides matchup nightmares, which in turn help Duncan exploit any matchup he has, and vice versa. There is no common sense argument to state that the two couldn't excel togethter. NOT ONE. PERIOD.

Ask any GM in the league who'd they choose and the consensus would be Dirk. If Pop and RC could make the trade they would. Only blind homers fail to see that.

Admitting that Dirk would make the Spurs more successful than Gino doesn't make you love Gino any less. It just means you can see the forest for the trees.

This

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So we all agree that Dirk is a second banana to Duncan.

I don't think anyone is saying Dirk > Duncan.

[Blackjack]

Yeah...it was a bit a of a bait thread. I commend you for being one of the few to make some good arguments for Manu though. At least you weren't saying things like "Well, Manu has been successful with Duncan and we don't know what Dirk would be because they never played together."

This thread almost got the, "I have a belly button treatment" but I realized this was more about calling out homers, than actual second banana arguments.

Like i said before, There's a legit reason for the salary discrepancy. If you're building a team and are in need of a franchise/numero uno player, there's no argument.

But, if you're making a hypothetical argument of having a prime, healthy player that compliments Tim's game and position, there's an argument to be made.

There'd be no argument whatsoever if Dirk were a backcourt player, though.

The argument that two number 1's can't defer to each other holds zero weight if their skills and position are in compliment. (i.e. Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Kobe or even Jordan/Pippen-- Pippen did almost take the Bulls to the finals.)

[benefactor]

*clears throat*

[benefactor]

Poll was tied at 98 when I bumped the thread.

lol random homer voting for Manu

[Muser]

lol anyone who has ever thought Manu > Dirk

[Muser]

You know my opinion, besides I think Manu compliments Tim's game a lot more.

yeah because the biggest miss match in the NBA wouldn't compliment Duncan. Dirk + Duncan would rival Kobe/Shaq in elite inside/outside game.