Never slow play the wheel against multiple opponents
on the turn with two callers I would have pooped it pretty good making it expensive to draw out it was already a decent sized pit so don't be greedy
your min raise was a huge mistake giving correct odds to call to hit any draw it's almost like giving them a free card
By the way min raising without holding the nuts is gay it's handy to use when you flop a flush draw and are last to act when someone bets min raise chances are u get a free card on the turn thus saving you from calling a pretty big bet
min raising on the river for value is okay assuming no scare cards that look like a draw came in
did u read that in a book?
Ur free to sit at my game any time sequ go ahead and talk your ish it's okay cuz that's all you do is talk
I'm here in Vegas playing every day consistently winning money week after week month after month.
The problem is that you let both of them limp in both behind and ahead of you. If you let two hands that potentially beat you stick around, they are either going to miss their card and get out as soon as you look like you have something, or they're going to hit it and pound you. If that guy is as loose as you claim, he's going to call a lot with 4 cards to a flush, especially if he hits them on the flop. Even on 4th street he'll probably play just to mess with your head, or even go over the top of you if he thinks you've put him on a flush draw.
Im not quite sure what your were trying to accomplish with your min raise on the turn, 10 times out of 10 that loose guy is going to call a min raise especially on a flush draw or open ended draw. If you suspect he is on a draw you need to pound that turn bet, pot sized bet or little less should be more than enough to get any sane player to fold. If you make that bet and the loose guy calls and hits his flush, oh well thats poker, he paid a price for that card and more times than not he will lose money with a big call like that.
The gutshot guy definitely would have folded had you made it 50-60 to go. And probably with a bet of 40.00
Agree. Unless I'm the big stack on the table and WAY ahead on the blinds, there is no way I'm ever calling a raise on a gutshot straight draw (and 90% of the time, not even then). It's one of the hardest cards to hit in poker. At the very least, if he calls that raise, then you know he's an idiot and doesn't know how to play.
I have a hand that is germane to this conversation.
I TOO FELL VICTIM TO A GUT SHOT.
Situation:
A 1-2 NL game here in town.
The player under the gun makes it $12 to go, I look down at KK. I make it $36 straight. I get 5 callers.Now I am praying that an ace does not flop.
Flop K 7 3 Rainbow
I could not have chosen a better flop.
The BB checks, the original raiser checks, I decide to slow play since I do not see any reason to fear any card on turn. In fact, I hope an ace turns now. I make a nominal $40 bet looking like I have a scared pair of queens or jacks. I get one caller.
Turn: 4
Now there is a flush draw and possible, cuz there are two hearts, so I bet $100 into the $180 pot, I get raised to $300, I push my remaining $400 into the pot, get snap called....I ask Kevin if he played the 56 on me and hit the gut shot, he nods yes, the river produces the non helpful that ace that I wanted on the turn, and I lost almost $600 in a hand that I thought was unbeatable on the flop.
Now, yes I slowplayed, but I would do it again in that situation. The texture of the flop allowed me to do so, so I could get extra value out of my monster flop.
In that other scenario, Fabbs sitting there with the 2nd Nuts wheel, I would have bet the pot with my weak wheel against 2 or more players, because there are two many outs for a wide variety of hands. Sometimes, the correct play is to slow play and sometimes, it is best to just take down the pot right then and there.
Had my flop been Q 10 6, I would have bet $125 into that $180 pot to either get the AQ to raise, or the straight draws to fold.
Last edited by Jimcs50; 08-18-2009 at 08:18 AM.
Had my biggest cash game win on Monday night.
Bought in for $400 in a 2-5 game at 8:00 pm, sat down with 9 other players who had been playing since 6 pm, and noted that my stach was by far the smallest. The stacks ranged from about 800 to 1600. However, it did not take me long to get up to speed. I raised blinds with 44, get 4 callers, flop is J J 8, everyone checks, a 3 comes on turn, so I bet $25, because it looks like everyone has missed here, I get one caller. A 4 spades hits river which unfortunitely for my opponent gave him the nut straight and me the full house, so I double up when all the money goes in on river.
Anyway, by 2am, my stack is up to $3275.
That made up for a bad month for sure.
Props Heath, CY, Jim and anyone i missed.
Thank for the advice on flopping a straight with multiple players still in the pot.
Flopped a straight again. I was gonna post it all cause it got real interesting after the turn and river, but i forgot now it was a couple days ago.Anywho it was very similiar to the other hand.
I had 6/9off and the flop was 5 7 8 rainbow. Long/short acting 1st i bet out per Heaths advice and it worked out great. 3 came along for the turn. After the turn i bet it out good per y'alls advice, like 1 1/2 times the pot. One stayed for the River all inner. The two who went out said i could have got more of their stack but i said perhaps so but this was a pretty nice pot and I'm not getting fried with that runner runner b.s. again.
Jim that is ^^^ killer good news. Good to see the good players get rewarded.
I had a 700 pot coming my way (250 of it mine so 450 profit) as i had a higher straight (A high) to his low end straight 9---K. After the turn got him all in and then Dilwad pops a 7% A on the River to make it a chop.
Last edited by Fabbs; 09-02-2009 at 02:10 PM.
Glad you learned. I've seen too many suckouts to know that slowplaying is very dangerous, because a lot of times, you do not admit to yourself that your powerful hand was drawn out on and you end up losing a lot of money.Props Heath, CY, Jim and anyone i missed.
Thank for the advice on flopping a straight with multiple players still in the pot.
Flopped a straight again. I was gonna post it all cause it got real interesting after the turn and river, but i forgot now it was a couple days ago.
I had 6/9off and the flop was 5 7 8 rainbow. Long/short acting 1st i bet out per Heaths advice and it worked out great. 3 came along for the turn. After the turn i bet it out good per y'alls advice, like 1 1/2 times the pot. One stayed for the River all inner. The two who went out said i could have got more of their stack but i said perhaps so but this was a pretty nice pot and I'm not getting fried with that runner runner b.s. again.
Jim that is ^^^ killer good news. Good to see the good players get rewarded.
I had a 700 pot coming my way (250 of it mine so 450 profit) as i had a higher straight (A high) to his low end straight 9---K. After the turn got him all in and then Dilwad pops a 7% A on the River to make it a chop.
The good thing about this 2-5 game I played in is the 4 times that I got AA or KK , there was a raise and calls before it was my turn to act, so I just overbet the pot and took down the pot right then and there. One time there was about $80 in the pot so I made it $150 to go, I got one caller and after flop, I bet $400 and just took it down, taking the $200 profit. The other 3 times, there was about $100 to $110 in the pot before it was my turn, and I just bet $250 and took it down. When I play in 1-2 games, I get greedy and do not want to win just $12 or so, so I try to slow play and sometimes, I lose my ass.
Reading your stories has given me a lust for poker again. I haven't played in about a year, and will have to get back up to speed, but it shouldn't be too difficult.
One thing I have found is that playing online poker messes up my live game - I was playing some online last year and for the first time in 5 years actually lost overall in casinos - played 4 times, lost twice, and more than I won the other two times. I think online is so loose at low levels that it gives you a false sense of security when playing aginst decent players in a 2/5 live game. Gave up online last year, haven't had time to play live this year, but I feel a game coming on...
Good to hear that you guys are all doing well. And nice work on your game Fabbs - you've obviously worked really hard on it, and now look where you are.
Reading your stories has given me a lust for poker again. I haven't played in about a year, and will have to get back up to speed, but it shouldn't be too difficult.
One thing I have found is that playing online poker messes up my live game - I was playing some online last year and for the first time in 5 years actually lost overall in casinos - played 4 times, lost twice, and more than I won the other two times. I think online is so loose at low levels that it gives you a false sense of security when playing aginst decent players in a 2/5 live game. Gave up online last year, haven't had time to play live this year, but I feel a game coming on...
Good to hear that you guys are all doing well. And nice work on your game Fabbs - you've obviously worked really hard on it, and now look where you are.
I never ever win online. I think Ive lost 10K online at least.
I am going to Win Star Saturday night to check out the poker room. All my friends have been and they all say it is great.
Any of you been?
Any of you guys able to hit Commerce this upcoming weekend?
220 entry fee, 500K pot. They are claiming even Vegas does not have this entry fee/pot risk/reward ratio.
Only 3,000 chips to start tho.
3 separate starting days, Thu Fri Sat. And altho no immediate rebuys, if one gets knocked out on Thur or Fri they can buy in for the next day. So i expect the rich Bingo Bettys to be out in force. I was gonna choose Sat but i suppose the Bettys-Trust Fund Brats will be Runner Runner All In on Sat too, even if it means once out they are out for good. Lets face it, this tourney is gonna require a lot of luck.
Sunday is Finals.
Thanks Ruff. I'm still learning but have eliminated a lot of rookie mistakes. I'm also a very good trapper but as you know that doesn't work against the bad players. Can you make it to Commerce?
Heath please tell me you are still in Vegas. My next trip keeps getting postponed but it is looking very mid-late Septemberish.
Fabbs, Im in Tennessee, but I plan on hitting up Vegas several times per year. Im going to have to get my fix online. I will probably microgrind it out to build bankroll, and use that for my tourney buy ins etc. Im curious to see how I stand in cash games online, that was a weak point for me a year ago, good in sit n goes, and bad in cash games but i have a year under my belt with a lot of hours so i expect my results to be better but I will be playing smaller stakes to start and grind my way up.
you or any clowns on here do online sports betting?
i got a friend who blew about 60k on one bet...lol i told him shouldve used it on a house deposit or some ....ive had friends who lost big and took a gamble and won it all back on the next games and ....got some weird friends, another mate blew his house deposit and loan he took out from friends and blew it on slot machines, didnt even tell his wife...and he won it all back after hitting a jackpot...
i was planning to go into a syndicate with them where 4 guys chip 1-2k for capital and just bet, since most of them are analysts anyway probably know wtf they are doing....
have you ever been to private house games and shifty dealers where its all setup and to bait the amateur player.....asian poker is like poker without the flop cards on table, you just bet on each card you recieve and bluff ur way...5k-10k+ easy on each hand....this is fkn cash no bs credit ots allowed in. the house usually makes about 2-5k easy just from hosting and doing nothing at all and providing hospitality like food, drinks and . These 2 clowns i know lost about 150k between them against shifty card dealers...then they invited my dad to come along to check these shifty dealers and gave out advice to the 2 amatuer players...they ended up winning and the next time they didnt allowed my dad to come to any future events, so it was all a setup and to bait the 2 dumb players. Funni is 2 dumb players and the card dealers all ended up in the same prison, KARMA. Gambling is a mate.
Last edited by TDMVPDPOY; 09-07-2009 at 05:10 PM.
Lost my ass at Winstar Sat night in a 2-5 game.
Flopped two pair three times(twice top 2 and once top and bottom) and got sucked out on all three times for straight and flushes. The last time, I bet $150 into a $140 pot because this one guy that sucked out on me just 7 hands before was obviously drawing to a flush. He still called with a 10 high flush draw and gut shot draw and caught the gutter when a 9 came. Then the dumbass does not even value bet the straight so I at least save a hundred when I check behind.
^^ sorry to hear that Jim.
Laying down hands that are leading after the flop and turn is something i reluctantly do regularly now. Just so the Bingo Bettys won't suck out as they did on you.
Yesterday i was at the 2/5. Earlier i was at the 1/2 as it was 6 a.m. and the only table open. After two hours of card deadedness and Bingo Betty river flushing my 2 pair (just like you Jim) i was -130. Had enough of that *&^% so went to the 2/5 when it opened.
Built up to +300 and was itchin to double up. Long story short i had pockets on a rainbow but straight draw board and when Bingo Betty jacked it to 150 after the turn i knew he had lower pair but a straight draw yet i just wasn't gonna blow my whole stack on his fuggin suck out potential. Had i called his 150 i know he would have went all in. Makes it difficult these days to play with those continual suck out chasers.
Btw, how do you guys deal with card deadedness?
Commerce in LA is gonna do it again in Nov. 220 entry fee for 500K guarantee. Oct same digits exceeded guarantee to the tune of about 750K. I couldn't make it. Did play two of the one table satellites. Chopped with a guy on the 1st one, the same guy who had his buddy chip dump him on the second hand of play. I told the floor and as usual they did nothing.
2nd table i was tied with three of us, had a domination All In with one of the 2 my AK vs AJ for him. Frappin board did one of those two pair deals so we chopped. Went card dead after that, finished 3rd no money. rrrrrrrr.
Card deadness is inevitable. You just have to play through it or try out some moves every once in a while because if you are sitting there folding for hours on end you can get away with some steals every once in a while due to your tight presence. Plus keep in mind you don't have to play the nuts in late position, if you get some limpers pop it with any two cards, many times your cbet will take it down on the flop unless they really hit something. Sometimes you can make a profitable session just by doing this every once in a while.
I am here in TN jonesing for some live play, Tunica is 7 hours away outside of that not much going on in the poker world for me right now. I left Vegas on a 10 session winning streak plus several nice cashes in Tourneys and Im in misery at the moment.
How did Darvon Moon lose most of his chip lead at the final table? Gradually or on one or two big pots?
I don't mean the head to head with Cada, i mean from the start of the Nov 9.
I dont know exactly but I recall reading about many many badbeats and suckouts at the final table. Lots of runner runners and two outers and . Chips were flying all over the place.
If it were up to me i would change the name of the game from "Hold Em" to "Suckout".
Heath I'm doing really well, 3-3 on sessions +67% in Nov and 1-1 on a tourney (chop 6 ways, fortunate for me since i was tied for low stack). But i continually see the ones who leave the table with the biggest stacks are pure suck out luck outs. They make dumb moves and get rewarded.
Ie AKsuited vs K9 all in pre flop and the board will go 78 10J for them.
You are remembering the 30% of the times that you lose and forgeting the 70% of the times your dominant hand holds up. Of course with small samples, you might have people suckout 3 of 4 times, but over a period of a year, you will win when you get your money in good.
Joe Cada sucked out numerous times, but in the tourney for the most part, he must have played solid poker to get where he was.
Props Heath. I paid more attention to this then usual yesterday at a small tourney. Definitely got me thru a couple card dead spots with three separate steals. Ended up only making 27 bucks as Bingo Betty bad beat me out right after the bubble. But the late position steals definitely kept my stack going all three times.
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