Wilt...
Gotta go with David.
Take away Dwight's height and body and you have nothing really except a guy that likes to dunk.
That's true for most NBA players. Other than their gifts, they have no real skillsets. Which is illustrated best when you have players like Shaq and Ben Wallace signing $60M+ deals and they can't even hit free throws.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18
That blur across your screen is David Robinson.
I've had to repost this a million times when Oden was coming up to dispel any and ALL myths that he was in the same galaxy as David Robinson as an athlete. Surprisingly many fans on various boards I frequent and "experts, compared his athleticism to David Robinson. Yeah...okay.
There's isn't a 7'1" athlete with the combination of speed, explosiveness and agility as the Admiral. The way he moved was like a 6'7" wing except int he body of a big man.
I love David Robinson, but he couldn't dunk his free throws. David was a complete athletic freak, but Wilt was THE athletic freak.
I don't really care about searching and reading old discussions - once in a while I read the first page of ST threads. All you've done was comment on my post and why you think I shouldn't have a take. Great. whatever, I don't give a about that. You never brought a take of your own, except to ask me to not have an opinion about something I don't know about. To that I say off. Actually, I noticed you did make some points there later which I'll respond to in a minute.But gimme a break - most of the posters on the forum know a thing or two about ball, not many know that much more. And if you think you know too much to be discussing basketball with mere peons, maybe you should be the one not posting on sites like this, because anyone can form an opinion. Thinking you're too good to talk to someone or discuss a point is the halmark of an asshole.
I wish you'd actually state what you believe about the topic at hand. I will judge when it is appropriate for me to post and if mods think I get out of hand, they are free to ban me. I stated in my original post what I thought, but recognized that there were limitations to my knowledge on the subject. Unless you're Dr. Jack Ramsey, or Lord Popovich himself, I don't give a rat's ass about what you think you know about basketball or how many posts you have. If you knew the basketball equivalent of optimization theory, you should have a front office job. But you're probably some shmo' at a desk, working a regular job, or maybe even a great job, given that you're posting on ST. What I'm sure you're not is someone who is employed by an NBA team. So get off your high horse and bring a basketball take.
If all you're interested in doing is "owning" someone on an internet forum with your mad arguing skillz, be my guest. (although i think that's pretty pathetic)
But if you want to really contribute to the forum and add to the discussion, let me know where you think I'm wrong. You seem to just be sitting on some high horse with this optimization theory crap and that's pretty pretentious dude.
Your responses to my posts have also highlighted a major flaw in this type of discussion - and it's already been mentioned: subjectivity. My original post stated that I thought Wilt is in the discussion, but it's not so cut and dry that he was definitely the greatest athlete among centers.
What makes you think Wilt is the most athletic, if that's your opinion? I really think a lot of the posters have brought some pretty good takes with the reasons for whoever they are supporting. We all know Jabbar wasn't all that great an athlete as well. In fact, that's an argument a lot of people have used for supporting the idea that Tim Duncan still has some good years "in the tank", and hence can be good for several more years, since neither relied all that much on athleticsim, relying rather on the arsenal of moves each has/had. (sorry bout the run-on) So your Jabbar argument is only so/so in my estimation, really. I don't care about old Wilt vs. young Jabbar, or old Jabbar vs. young Hakeem, I think people are trying to look at all these guys in their primes and decide which was the most athletic at his best.
I really think it's David for speed and leaping ability, and David was no slouch in terms of strength either, although I believe Wilt had the edge there after he bulked up.
As far as me saying you're all nostalgic about the older eras, you're right, you never said that. I erroneously assumed that was your stance. And you know what, I actually don't know for sure that all those guys definitely would have won those imaginary track compe ions, just like nobody can know for sure that Wilt was easily twice the athlete that DRob and Dwight are COMBINED. That's just a bit of hyperbole don't you think? I did the same of course in saying Shaq would have scored 200. But you gotta admit Wilt didn't have the same degree of competion the modern guys had.
There may even be guys who could win the athlete argument that we are not considering because while they may have been great athletes, they were not skilled enough to be effective for major minutes.
Have a good life, bud.
Last edited by 4down; 08-26-2009 at 07:47 PM.
Were the seasons 82 games long during Wilt's tenure? That might mitigate some of the glory of that accomplishment, although it is impressive.
young shaq had his head at rim level consistently and was the strongest playa ever. no doubt. drob was very quick, could jump and run fast. and dwight jumps high.
Shaq has been called athletic for his size. That doesn't even put him within shouting distance of guys like Hakeem and Robinson.
Easily David
OK..seriously..to compare Dwight Howard at this moment to David Robinson in his prime is an insult to David. Dwight has little to no offensive game. If you get a guy who can match him with power, he's got no game. He's not a good shooter, Not as fast as David, not as athletic as David, and David, over a MUCH longer career than Dwight has experienced so far, shoots 13% better on Free Throws, which is VERY important for athletic bigs who know how to get fouled. This isn't even close...yet. Now don't get me wrong..Dwight has a lot of promise...and I really like him, but he's not NEAR HOF level..and that's what you're comparing him with.
wikipedia is true...it is...IT IS...
I would think the Admiral was more agile, quicker, and more limber then both Dwight and Wilt. Wilt i'd think was definitely stronger and probably had a better cons ution. Evaluating endurance and stamina is suspect to me because did Wilt have to exert as much energy trying to stop opposing players? His stature and length I think helped him. He was more durable then Robinson, but then I don't think that has anything to do with athleticism. Anyways there are so many attributes to being athletic so its hard to compare.
Wilt was so dominant because of his athleticism that he caused changes in the form as well as the rules of the game. One was the widening of the lane and the other was to outlaw crossing the foul line with the ball on a foul shot. He could simply leap to the basket and dunk a foul shot.
He also played vollyeball at a professional level well into his middle age, demonstrating his agility. He was incredibly strong at 7'1 and almost 300 lbs. It was said that players never tried to block or stuff his dunks because they feared they'd go through the basket along with the ball.
So you are lecturing me about not forming my opinion that you shouldn't form an opinion on a subject you confess of being ignorant about? At least I don't come in here and start to state my position on a topic I know absolutely nothing about.
I don't really care about searching and reading old discussions - once in a while I read the first page of ST threads. All you've done was comment on my post and why you think I shouldn't have a take. Great. whatever, I don't give a about that. You never brought a take of your own, except to ask me to not have an opinion about something I don't know about. To that I say off. Actually, I noticed you did make some points there later which I'll respond to in a minute.
That is some fantastic arguments, such as people have to be in a certain profession to know about something. But of course, something as simple as whether Wilt Chamberlain was athletic does not need a job on an NBA team, but you probably wouldn't know.
Besides, there are loads of argument already presented, whatever I say would have been repeating what was already posted.
Another jump to a conclusion.
Where you were wrong was to have no respect of the history of the game, and act all righteous in it. If you don't know your basketball history, learn it, don't go out and diminish the accomplishments of great players that came in before you started watching basketball.
Except you stated the decade wrong, and exaggerated the lack of athleticism of Wilt's compe ion.
So I take it you haven't seen Jabbar play either. There hasn't been a player his height that played with the level of fluidity since. Get some tape.
Why would you know? You never even watched the guy play?
Bill Russell, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Chamberlain played during the first golden age of centres.
There may even be guys who could win the athlete argument that we are not considering because while they may have been great athletes, they were not skilled enough to be effective for major minutes.
Have a good life, bud.
One thing for sure, David has more brains and more class than Shaq, Dwight and the late great Wilt had put together.
David Robinson. And I'm not just being a homer Spurs fan. If you look at both of their skill sets and versatility, Robinson is clearly better. Robinson was a beast and Dwight Howard is just the closest thing to him right now.
Someone might get 100 points but no one is getting 50 rebounds ever again.
Arvydas Sabonis would give Wilt a run for his money, too bad he came to the NBA after his prime and after several injuries. Sabonis got to go head to head against DRob.
DRob. Howard is stronger, but Robinson was fast. At times he played like a 7 foot SG.
By looking at the players I had to go with DRob. There is no comparison to Howard.
wilt has not so great coordination on his moves, and I think college Shaq was even more athletic then wilt
Guys likes Dwight and Hakeem do not belong in the same sentence with Drob, they were great athletes for men their size, Drob was a great athlete for a man of any size.
As for Drob VS Wilt, even I'm not sure on that one, because there is literally no one else like Wilt Chamberlain in the history of the game, not only does no one of any other era compare to him, no one of his era compares to him either. And he was a track star as well.
That said, I don't believe Wilt was as fast as David Robinson, certainly not in any video I have ever seen.
Other than that, I never saw Wilt play so I truly don't know he was the athetlic freak Drob was, I'm inclined to say he wasn't based on the video footage I have seen, I just know he was unquestionably the greatest player to ever play the game.
I've never had the opinion Wilt's numbers were a product of his era...no one of his era came anywhere ing close to putting up his numbers, no one before his era did either, neither did anyone after his era.
All that said, there is no video footage you can show that shows him being the atheltic freak Drob was. Drob qualified for the naval gymnastic program...you guys go take a look at the size of the typical gymnast, then go look at the size of David Robinson when he qualified for that(even before he reached his full height).
Dude - you seem to be taking this (and yourself) way too seriously. It's an internet message board. Relax. You still haven't convinced me that Wilt was more athletic than Dwight and David (and hakkem and Shaq, for that matter). I readily admit I can;t convince you surely of my argument, but that's why it's a discussin, bro. people come in and give their takes and take what they will from it. I'm not a fan of forums becoming like the youtube comments section, where it's all dumb personal attacks, that get way off topic. (KBP seems to love that) Your attacking my level of knowledge really doesn't address the topic.
Despite the tenor of my original post, I do have an appreciation, and have watched a fair amount of pre-1980's to curent era basketball . Suffice it to say, the league has become increasingly athletic from its inception to now. You seem to be very dismissive of that. The game is more above the rim than it used to be. I know that doesn't cover all facets of what one may call "athleticism" as far as basketball goes, but it is a major indicator of the athleticism in the game.
I dont disagree that Jabaar was fluid, had an ARSENAL of moves, and was one of the best of al time, but he didn't depend on his athleticism. I don't think many people would try to argue that he was even in the top five in centers in terms of athletic ability. Neither did Hakeem, although it is my opinion that he was more athletic than Jabaar. If you go back and watch the game footage, you will see that he had a lot more lift than Jabaar.
It wasn't my argument that Wilt was not athletic. I think you read a little more in my post than what I said, although my tone was admittedly dismissive of the "old league" I responded to the hyperbole that Wilt was "twice as athletic as David and Dwight combined" with the hyperbole that Shaq would have scored 200. That was in jest, which sometimes is difficult to convey in text, but I do believe that against the same compe ion, Shaq could easily have matched or exceeded Wilt's production.
Realistically, you can't quantify these guys athleticism to make one empirically researched conclusion as to who was the most athletic, and I don't rule wilt out if this (subjective) discussion. Out of the players discussed, I'd say Dwight, David, Wilt, Hakeem, and Shaq are the top candidates. I don't think any of those five clearly stands out against the others. But I reserve the right to form an opinion, no matter what degree of knowledge I have, and afford you the same.
If we take this further and include all big men, who else might figure into the discussion? Shawn Kemp? Karl Malone? Who else am I missing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paex9-VxPbA- Wilt Chamberlain running the full length of the court in game. Showing you his speed.
You guys ask yourselves whether any any centers you mentioned can do this.
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