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who's David Robinson?
That's one of the better arguments I've seen from you, but I can still look at the video and see Wilt didn't have David's physique and David's got gymnasts arms, produced by muscle extension, which is the strongest muscle development there is, not body builders produced by muscle contraction and those guys that Wilt was playing against definitely weren't as advanced as the atheletes David played against.
I'll just put it another way, I can also look at the video and see Wilt was an extremely skilled offensive player with a great deal of natural touch and feel for the game...part of what made him Wilt Chamberlain was his skill, as well as his athletecism.
David did what he did just because he could do things, a lot of them, phbysically that no one else of his size(and even smaller) could do.
David Robinson accomplished things that only players like Wilt or Karreem accomplished...and it was almost entirely predicated upon athletecism, moreso than it was when they themselves accomplished those feats.
I still say Wilt was unquestionably the greatest player to ever step foot on a basketball court, I do not think putting him in a comparison with the Admiral on sheer athletecism is an argument that was decided before it even began though. There is definitely room to speculate David was his match or even his superior as an athlete.
There just are no other 7 footers that moved like David Robinson did...
As mentioned earlier, David Robinson had a freaking 6-7 inch growth spurt after joining the Navy...
It's almost like his body didn't have time to get slower as it got bigger like is the typical case with bigmen....he has the movements of a much smaller man.
who's David Robinson?
I haven't read the whole thing, but I will say that D-Rob at age 28 or 29 (his prime) was a better pure athlete than Howard is now. The way he moved, his body control, and his level of coordination was amazing. Not only that, but most people forget how explosive he was because he was so effortless doing it.
It's close race, though, and Dwight could well pass up The Admiral within the next few years. He's undoubtedly the most athletic pure center to come along since Robinson and Hakeem, and I'd already put him as one of the 5 most athletic centers of all-time.
All I know is that Wilt wouldn't have been put to sleep by Karl Malone.
Wilt had the soft / no heart label too you know.
And Karl Malone finished his career like 0-20 in games against Drob after that incident...including being held scoreless by David in a game in his final season.
Dont Dis DAVID ROBINSONS legacy by comparing him to a guy who hasnt accomplished jack on the court or off.........
When he donates 12-million of his own money to do something for others outside of basketball then compare them... But dont mention them in the same sentence let alone try to compare the 2 basketball wise.
Eh...I gotta go to work, I'll be back for the rebuttal later. For now I may have posted some fatual details in error, but I didn't invalidat any arguments I've been making. I got two facts wrong, one one of those errors served to enhance my argument(sligthly) the other one served to hurt it...
So focusing on small details and attempting to argue that has somehow invalidated my arguments is pretty weak and reeks of grasping for straws.
I feel I've been pretty unbiased, even bolstering some of the Wilt arguments where I felt it was deserved...whereas you are pretty much focusing on unsubstantiated talk, and conceding nothing to David...discounting a great deal of factual informartion in his favor in the process...
IOW, Wilt does not have reputation for being a great defensive player. And block stats kept by team stat keepers before there was even an agreed upon definition of a block doesn't really serve as ironclad proof.
I imagine he probably was of a shotblocker...but you are saying man who registerd like, no block totals, blocked more shots than anyone in the history of the game? That is pure runaway speculation and conjecture...and unacceptable as either logic or fact.
Not only that but David was a better FT shooter, and not because he practiced his free throws, or took more of them. It's simply because he exceptionally coordinated beyond the typical bigman.
The only really impressive thing (athletically) that I saw in that video of wilt was the block on the skyhook toward the end.
* oh and the game was most certainly played at a far slower pace back then
The woulda coulda stuff is weak. It's basically a concession that David was more athletic than Wilt - which he was.
Wilt had nowhere near a 50 inch vertical. That was as big a lie as his 20,000 women claim. If a 7 footer had a 50 inch verticle, I guarantee he wouldn't need to float up those weak no look, quick flip finger rolls around the post. Nor would all his dunks be of such low elevation...The video truth is that most of his dunks weren't too far above the rim. Moreover, it doesn't even look like he had the coordination to catch an alley oop with a defender around him.
Wilt's athletic prowess has been embellished. David Robinson was by far the more athletic of the two. It's not even really close and you can look at video after video to prove it. Wilt's athleticism was more akin to Robinson in his last years.
It's not weak to qualify eras. It's what it is.
You put Usain Bolt in the 1940s, he's not running a 9.58 100 meters. You put Barry Bonds in the 1960s, he doesn't hit 73 HRs in a season.
You have to take into consideration the time/era and what advantages athletes in each era have. Technology in nutrition, conditioning, and weight lifting absolutely should play a factor in this analysis. Would David Robinson have those arms if he didn't lift weights?
That's why I qualified my comments by saying "natural" athletic ability.
In Wilt's NBA.com bio it said that he won the Big 8 high jump le with a leap of 6'6". That's not to say it's his personal best. But to say the guy can't jump is absolutely ridiculous considering he was a HIGH JUMP CHAMPION. DRob is among the most athletic players ever, no doubt, but Wilt was off the charts. Wilt was over 300 lbs for a good portion of his career but that didn't hurt him one bit.
http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.htmlBig-league volleyball attracted his energies for a while, as did tennis, running marathons and even polo. At one point he hoped to challenge Muhammad Ali to a world heavyweight fight.
I never saw Wilt play, but at least I have a concept of what an amazing human specimen the guy was. There will never be another Wilt in our lifetime.
Now, onto the original "argument" of Howard vs DRob. This isn't even an argument. DRob in a landslide. DRob could run with guards, jump out of the building and was strong. He looks slender but tipped the scales at 250, pure muscle. People are such in a "now" mode that they have no sense of history (see Wilt Chamberlain). I once heard Mark Jackson say that Kobe was as good a 2 guard as the league has ever seen, completely forgetting that Jackson actually played against Jordan.
Further evidence of this "now" perception is that Dwight and Amare are players doing things unseen before. However, just going back to last decade you had Robinson, Hakeem and even Shawn Kemp doing things Amare has done. And young Shaq was just as athletic as Dwight. Here's a good video just showing some of the athleticism of DRob.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iKzLrGHU3k
How do you equate me saying he didn't have a 50 foot vertical to saying he couldn't jump?
David had something like a 32-36 inch vertical. To pretend Wilt could out jump him by at least 14 inches is crazy talk especially if you look at video evidence. You can cite whatever high school records you want, but the truth is in the video and David is clearly the superior athlete.
Wilt never touched 300.
Here's Wilt at his biggest...
He was listed at 275, but stayed in shape his entire career. Never had a gut, not even in his 40's, long after his playing days.
Shaq, who's the same height as Wilt, played at 325 last year with the Suns.
Wilt was never even close to that big. Shaq has a much wider body, much broader shoulders. Wilt was always yoked, even though you had to look to be able to tell, but I'd give him 275 and not a pound more.
There's this.
And the Big 8 isn't a high school division, but rather a major college conference (that merged with the SWC to form the Big 12). Again, showing your ignorance there.I guarantee he wouldn't need to float up those weak no look, quick flip finger rolls around the post. Nor would all his dunks be of such low elevation...
And as for the 300 lbs remark that I made, there's this from his NBA.com bio:
Chamberlain stood 7-1 and was listed at 275 pounds, though he filled out and added more muscle as his career progressed and eventually played at over 300 pounds.
You talking about "ifs"; not about the most athletic Center of all time
Those weak no look, quick flip finger rolls were because the media was criticising Wilt for being a power player and he changed his style to shut the people up.
Wilt also lead the league with 8 assists a game in his era where assists were difficult to get because no dribbling was allowed before the shot for the assist just to shut the media up and also to play just as the coach told him to.
drob easily ... i mean dwight is athletic when jumping, but drob could run the floor and finish.
No, I'm qualifying eras.
David Robinson having the arms he did with the definition they had is a product of weight lifting, something Wilt Chamberlain didn't do. Again, that's why I qualified my comments talking about who was more "naturally" athletic.
When people talk about the greatest homerun hitters of all time, it should be a no-brainer that it's Barry Bonds. But, many if not most people qualify his numbers because of advantages he had, and often times Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth are still considered greater.
David Robinson didn't cheat or do anything wrong, but he had certain technological advantages. That's just fact. That's why you take that into consideration. If David Robinson was born in the 1940s, would he have had the same physique? No. And, that's why you can't criticize Wilt for not having as good a physique as Robinson.
1. LOL at people who say "look at the video, Wilt wasn't that athletic".
Looking at the video, Jim Thorpe wasn't that athletic either.
2. Robinson's major advantage in this discussion is that he was a trained gymnast, which everyone will agrees is something that requires advanced athletic skills, and is especially rare in a seven-footer. It's also one sport in which Wilt doesn't have proven ability. However, Robinson doesn't appear to have any noteworthy accomplishments in compe ive gymnastics, while Wilt does in track and field. Therefore it seems safe to say that Robinson wasn't as good a gymnast as Wilt was a track athlete. The big unknown, and probably the thing that would have best settled the question, is what would have happened if DRob had gone out for track.
3. I agree with those who say you have to normalize for the era. DRob had modern advantages in terms of nutrition, training, and equipment. You can't just look at how they were cut.
The answer is pretty simple, and has been stated several times in this thread.
For the sake of pure athleticism:
Wilt > Robinson > Howard
Wilt was a freak, a once in a century type of athlete. I won't bother to go into to much detail, as it's been rehashed a lot in this thread, but Wilt is simply one of those athletes who you think can't impress you any more...and then you learn even more about him and are impressed all over again.
I watched Chamberlin for his whole career and was in the East going to NBA games and watching them on TV from 1957 on. I can't even begin to tell you how great he was in our NBA.
High school:he high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches, ran the 440 yards in 49.0 seconds and the 880 yards in 1:58.3, put the shot 53 feet, 4 inches, and broad jumped 22 feet.[10]. (Any of these times or marks would have put him in the Texas High School State track meet in the Fifties)
College: He ran the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds, threw the shotput 56 feet, triple jumped more than 50 feet, and won the high jump in the Big Eight track and field championships three straight years
Looking at the athletes of the day In the 1956 Olympics, Bobby Morrow set a record in 100 meters at 10.62. Career Personal Bests: 100 – 10.2 (1956); 200 – 20.75 (1956); 400 – 47.7y (1959).
Could he have done the handstand trick? I guarantee you if he was challenged he would have gone down the floor --and then come back on his hands just to prove something.
Remember that DROB, as great as he was, broke down physically early. Chamberlin NEVER did. He was playing professional volleyball in his 40s.
I've always thought the guy was an alien in disguise.
Hakeem and young Shaq are above Dwight Howard as of this moment. Dwight still does not have a respectable post move. That weak baby running hook is laughable when you compare it to the Dream's shake or any of Shaq's dominant moves when he was young, light, and the most incredible athlete we have ever seen. Robinson before the injury was a force to be sure. The top three most athletic centers are Shaq, Hakeem, and David, in no particular order. Dwight is not in the conversation until he develops some signature post moves.
Wilt doesn't look as fast as Drob. Not even close. Not just based on his own movments, but relative to those around him as well.
2. Robinson's major advantage in this discussion is that he was a trained gymnast, which everyone will agrees is something that requires advanced athletic skills, and is especially rare in a seven-footer. It's also one sport in which Wilt doesn't have proven ability. However, Robinson doesn't appear to have any noteworthy accomplishments in compe ive gymnastics, while Wilt does in track and field. Therefore it seems safe to say that Robinson wasn't as good a gymnast as Wilt was a track athlete. The big unknown, and probably the thing that would have best settled the question, is what would have happened if DRob had gone out for track.
That's just it though, there's no indication David Robinson ever tried out for any sort of athletic compe ion if he wasn't recruited to do so.
In fact the only compe ion it seems David ever sought out was the chess team.
I don't even think David ever acted on qualifying for MENSA on his SAT. I've never heard of him being affiliated with them.
He doesn't have any gymnastic achievements because I don't believe he was ever actually on the Naval Gymnastic Team, only that he qualified for it, not to mention graded out as the best gymnast in his entire class.
He was also the best basketball player of his class, yet if he hadn't played he would have no acomplishments in it.
I mean David had no basketball achievements, until he actually started playing basketball, then holy did he do some freakish things. In an era when there was an abundance of freak bigmen,.
And I'd argue that grading out as the best Naval Acdemy Gymnast as a 6'7 man is just as impressive as being 7 foot and winning conference sprint and jump compe ions at the dawn of the integrated era.
Can you give me any sort of indication David Robinson ever availed himself of those advatages?3. I agree with those who say you have to normalize for the era. DRob had modern advantages in terms of nutrition, training, and equipment. You can't just look at how they were cut.
Plus, weights existed in the fifties and sixties.
Wilt most certainly could have lifted weights had he wanted...he just didn't want to, there's no indication David wanted to either, in fact the indication is that he probably was less interested in doing that sort of thing than Wilt.
Everything I've heard about David leads me to believe he was the anti-gym rat. I remember Larry Brown getting pissed off at him because he was spending all his time on the internet when he was young man instead of improving his game(and this was when the internet barely existed).
And David doesn't have bodybuilders arms, his arms are not particularly massive, nor is there anything to incidate he did anything special to make them look that way...outside of doing stuff like walking the lenghts of basketball courts on his hands(which you aren't going to do with noodle arms).
And finally, the company you keep...the only other pro athlete I've heard that could do something similar to walking the length of basketball courts on his hands, was Walter Payton...lots of pro athletes had conference track and field accomplishments, Alexander Wright for instance, and he wasn't anything close to the greatest athlete of his era.
Last edited by whottt; 08-29-2009 at 06:52 PM.
Lol what?!?!?!?!
Wow.
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