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how would such "abilities" be determined? who would decide what students are best adapted to a certain environment?
i am familiar with sam and can not say that i regard him to be a social darwinist and he obviously stated a quick summation of some general ideas, as did you, but i could not help but sense a certain element (however small) of social darwinism in the posts.
how would such "abilities" be determined? who would decide what students are best adapted to a certain environment?
Well, you could not help yourself then. At least that is honest.
Demonstrated mastery of curriculum, by the student.
You forgot smiling all the while.
Then it's not "education" but rather employment and citizenship indoctrin...er, training and should not be mistaken for anything else.
As for enslavement, that is a loaded term, but I will submit that one can be enslaved without physical chains.
One could argue that perhaps 35% of kids in SA are better suited to learning on their own
In reality, I think that the issue is not that schools are unnecessary or that home schooling is the better option. Its that schools have become incapable of providing solutions acceptable to different groups of the population. If you are going to be working a construction job, why not be able to go to a trade school for the last 2 years of HS? Then you have an applicable certification/degree. If you are going to go to college, why not have a HS degree plan that actually teaches you something and prepares you for college? Essentially, it boils down to our HS education not providing people with an education appropriate to their skills and strengths.
as for the latter, i think we all know what rosseau quipped on this matter in the "social contract" so this is nothing new.
but my question, about your perspective on the "americanization" of such concepts as education, had more to do with what you regard the pragmatic perspective on pedagogy to be when juxtaposed to your comments on how education serves to metamorphasize us all into some sort of kafkaesque society.
And personal choice, as long as that personal choice is matched by a drive that allows the student to catch up to the requisite level.
If someone wants to be a welder, but is better suited to be a scientist, he can make that choice. If someone wants to be a scientist and is better suited to be a welder, but works hard to learn, then they should have that opportunity too.
what curriculum? doesn't someone have to decide what this curriculum is. and at what point is it decided that some are geared towards one curriculum and not another.
we are clearly steering toward more inequity here than the desired result would have been.
Agreed.And personal choice, as long as that personal choice is matched by a drive that allows the student to catch up to the requisite level.
if this becomes an individual choice, and one that can abet one's skills and talents i would have to say that such an option would be theoretically attractive.One could argue that perhaps 35% of kids in SA are better suited to learning on their own
In reality, I think that the issue is not that schools are unnecessary or that home schooling is the better option. Its that schools have become incapable of providing solutions acceptable to different groups of the population. If you are going to be working a construction job, why not be able to go to a trade school for the last 2 years of HS? Then you have an applicable certification/degree. If you are going to go to college, why not have a HS degree plan that actually teaches you something and prepares you for college? Essentially, it boils down to our HS education not providing people with an education appropriate to their skills and strengths.
There's a lot of money to be made in "education" as it exists in these United States. And there's a lot of money to be made with a gullible public, as well as a significant amount of power to ac ulate. No socialist will stand in the way of our life, liberty, and pursuit of corpostate happiness.
Steering toward equality is a proven failure. People's ap udes and their desire to learn are not equal.
As for the question of curriculum, it should provide the basic tools and cultural knowledge required to succeed in learning and life. What people are best suited for, provided they first acquire the essential tools (reading, math, science, history, literature) for self-education, they can determine for themselves.
Yes, there is a "pragmatic" angle to education which serves interests other than the actual individual receiving that education. Naturally public education in the US has its origins in Americanizing the progeny of newly arrived garlic eating Popists.
I was really impressed with the German educational structure when I lived there as an exchange student. The basic run down is this (I may be just a tad bit off, it has been 12 years): after primary schooling and 2 years of secondary schooling (kinda like junior high here), a student who wishes to pursue a career in a vocational industry goes to Grundschule, this adds 2 years at the High School level after which they go to vocational school. The next option is Realschule which gives them 4 years at the high school level then they will be ready for some of the lower ranking white collar jobs. The last option is Gymnasium which is 5 years at the high school level, and prepares a student to go to the University. My only issue with this (and I never really asked the question), is how does the child decide? Is it decided for him or her based on grades in their primary education? I don't know. I can, however, see an advantage to letting grades decide what options are available to the student. The parents HAVE to be involved in their child's early education if they have any kind of desire for their children to go to college.
There is a certain practicality to getting an education for vocational purposes -- whether that education is obtained through a public ins ution, a private school, or is obtained by the school of "hard knocks".
do these bolded statements contradict one another or is there a causal relation here that you are suggesting would be remedied by the existence of a self-designated curriculum?
That's the primary TANGIBLE benefit.
Education is not a gift of the state. It is essentially self-bestowed. It can't be transmitted to people who don't do the work.
Naturally the Krauts would come up with a more efficient method for sorting the wheat from the chaff. Though the fact that you bring up the German education model is appropriate as the origins of US public education lie in Prussia.
I've heard talk amongst friends that are educators by trade. They have heard of programs implemented in Europe that some in the Dept. of Ed. are considering implementing here.
http://ec.europa.eu/education/news/news1673_en.htmWith decades of experience in transnational co-operation, the EU is a natural test-bed for globalisation and an instinctive champion of global governance.
Americans think it is elitist that there should be more than one educational track, or that college prep ought to be geared to the students have the most proven ap ude for it. Maybe it is elitist.
But along the lines of what Sam was saying, it is almost as if protecting the abstract notion of equality has supplanted developing the ap udes and abilities of the child in the most appropriate way, as the goal of education.
Education should be a primarily academic enterprise, geared to the students and designed to foster a very high level of attainment. Gearing it toward abstract democratic ideals instead is a perversion, IMO.
Last edited by Winehole23; 09-09-2009 at 02:07 PM.
Double post.
Last edited by Winehole23; 09-09-2009 at 12:11 PM.
sam spelled out his position pretty clearly and i assume you are with him in his line of thinking. but while the overall picture is that of progressive education i still think there are aspects of weeding out those who need to be helped the most in some of your posts. this may be unintended but is still something i would have to have clarified.
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