35% of HS students don't finish HS in SA

[Winehole23]

that is, effort alone or ap ude tests do not alone stand as a testament to a student's at ude or potential when it comes to education.

Sure. Effort and ins utional measurement aren't everything. But literacy, logic, math and writing ability can't be faked. It's not too much to ask that students master and demonstrate these. In fact it's the aim of schooling.

Or at least, I thought it was.

[Winehole23]

perhaps you should actually go to the link i provided. it is about primary education.

So there's a hothouse flower based on Dewey. That doesn't negate the abysmal failure of Deweyite ideas in public education, which relates more specifically to the OP.

It also doesn't hurt that the school you cite has a pretty exacting curriculum, and presumably, highly competent teachers.

[Winehole23]

Not to say, highly apt and motivated students.

[rjv]

So there's a hothouse flower based on Dewey. That doesn't negate the abysmal failure of Deweyite ideas in public education, which relates more specifically to the OP.

It also doesn't hurt that the school you cite has a pretty exacting curriculum, and presumably, highly competent teachers.

and that is why the dewey paradigm will never work in this state. poor pay for teachers, schools that can not stay open, a government that can not decide how to fund our schools. taxpayers who about government funding of child care and after school programs...

and the most weeded out are the very students that would benefit most from a program that is geared towards evaluating experience as much as knowledge.

what you may regard as a lack of motivation is more than some perfunctory assumption about the character of an individual student or even a body of students in a specific area.

a poorly funded school can result in an overall level of malaise at all levels. edgewood v. kirby was all about such a dilemma, one that still exists today.

[sam1617]

sam spelled out his position pretty clearly and i assume you are with him in his line of thinking. but while the overall picture is that of progressive education i still think there are aspects of weeding out those who need to be helped the most in some of your posts. this may be unintended but is still something i would have to have clarified.

Remember, ap ude plus desire. If you have the desire to study a certain subject, that your ap ude may be lacking in, then you should be provided a reasonable amount of support. However, in some cases, that support may be "Here is a library card and google, go learn."

And yes, there would be some weeding out of the "chaff" as someone put it earlier. There are some who have no ap ude, and no desire, and I have no issue with not wasting time and money on them past a certain point. Now, what that certain point is, thats the tough part, isn't it?

[Winehole23]

do these bolded statements contradict one another or is there a causal relation here that you are suggesting would be remedied by the existence of a self-designated curriculum?

Neither.

The first was an observation, the second my response to your suggestion that the state has to determine what students are best suited to. Through their own ambition and abilities, students do this themselves.

Education is always in essence self-education. The student does the work, demonstrates what he knows and applies himself wherever he will.

[Winehole23]

and that is why the dewey paradigm will never work in this state. poor pay for teachers, schools that can not stay open, a government that can not decide how to fund our schools. taxpayers who about government funding of child care and after school programs...

and the most weeded out are the very students that would benefit most from a program that is geared towards evaluating experience as much as knowledge.

what you may regard as a lack of motivation is more than some perfunctory assumption about the character of an individual student or even a body of students in a specific area.

a poorly funded school can result in an overall level of malaise at all levels. edgewood v. kirby was all about such a dilemma, one that still exists today.

I doubt that funding explains everything. We spend way more on schools and get worse results than we did 50 years ago. Throwing more money at schools isn't a proven way to improve performance. Our public school system is living proof of that.

[sam1617]

and that is why the dewey paradigm will never work in this state. poor pay for teachers, schools that can not stay open, a government that can not decide how to fund our schools. taxpayers who about government funding of child care and after school programs...

and the most weeded out are the very students that would benefit most from a program that is geared towards evaluating experience as much as knowledge.

what you may regard as a lack of motivation is more than some perfunctory assumption about the character of an individual student or even a body of students in a specific area.

a poorly funded school can result in an overall level of malaise at all levels. edgewood v. kirby was all about such a dilemma, one that still exists today.

So whats wrong with school vouchers? Schools get a minimum dollar amount from the government, then for each student enrolled, get some other amount. Allow students the freedom to enroll wherever. Schools that are able to attract many students will have more income, hopefully allowing better teachers, curriculum, whatever. A specialized school with high standards could also attach a surcharge to the money from the voucher (unless its a religious school, church and state and all that), so the "elite" can still be elitists, especially if there is a scholarship program available for those with spectacular ability, but less than spectacular finances.

If you want to go to a football factory, go, get your low education degree, but high football degree, and good luck in life. If you want to be a doctor, go to a school that specializes in cranking out doctors. If you are an "inner city kid" and can't go to anywhere but your local school, guess what, its going to have lots of "inner city kids" going too, which means its going to have lots of money from its vouchers, and be able to hire enough educators, which it can't do know.

I'm not going to claim this doesn't have faults, it does, but it seems far more effective than educating to the lowest common denominator like it feels like public schools do now.

[Winehole23]

and the most weeded out are the very students that would benefit most from a program that is geared towards evaluating experience as much as knowledge.

Perhaps this is necessary. I don't see what it has to do with education.

what you may regard as a lack of motivation is more than some perfunctory assumption about the character of an individual student or even a body of students in a specific area.

My view on this is pragmatic. Students can either cut the mus or they can't. I don't make any assumptions about their character based on their performance. A chaotic home life, living in a bad neighborhood, psychological trauma -- any number of subjective factors can affect the performance of otherwise apt students of good character. But I don't think it is the place of schools to fix these problems.

[NFGIII]

Education is the single biggest domestic problem we have going forward in this country and most people have no clue. Those numbers are much worse at many of the cities schools. You remove some of the Northside and NEISD schools and you're looking at schools that barely graduate one out of every 2 students.

Agreed - it is our biggest problem. An significantly uneducated workforce will only lead to a declining nation, especially if you view it from a functional standpoint with technology being the standard by which to judge how your society will either move forward or not. A society must educate their citizens to be capable of understanding how to use it. We need to get our people to a basic level of competence - min. requirement - when they leave HS and then they can choose to either enter the workforce and be productive or continue to a higher level of education.

President Obama cannot change this or any president. The parents have too.

They are the key IMHO. The first 6 years of life are crucial in shaping the at udes and perspectives of children. After that then it becomes much harder to change their original concepts about life..etc.

I remember when I was in high school if a student didn't really have any ambition and was comfortable not making anything of themselves, they'd just drop out and take a job in the construction industry. Down here there's probably 1 or 2 degrees of seperation between anybody and somebody who owns or works for a construction crew.

Dropping out might have worked in the past... but I reckon that this economy will make students take a second look at dropping out because that 100% shot at a construction job isn't quite 100% anymore.

I'd say it was 1) Construction jobs 2) Parent's owned a company (usually construction oriented) 3) They were ups and were too stupid/lazy/ s wads to even do well with an easy as curriculum at a public school. 4) Drugs

I think today manual labor really isn't the option it used to be considering the level of technology present now. And that level will only increase leaving many who can't/didn't/wont keep pace falling further and further behind.

The conversion of schools from places of education to administrative facilities for low security detention and behavior modification has something to do with it too. Declining rates of literacy and the declining ratio of teachers to administrators tell the story. We've never spent more, and gotten less, from our schools.

I was at a lecture by Dan Morales - former Tx AG - back in the 80's and he said pretty much the same thing then. To him it seemed that the parents expected the schools to baby sit and teach their children how to be competent and law abiding citizens. He thought that had to do with the fact that in most families both parents worked and felt like they didn't have the time and energy to do that.

Anyway doesn't the USA spend the most or pretty near that per student yet is ranked like in the bottom two slots among the industrialized nations?
That in and of itself should clue us into the fact we're not getting the returns needed to keep pace with other nations. Over several generations this country will pay the price for that.

I think he was saying something in the middle: that not everyone is well suited to go to college. Basic education is of course a necessity, but beyond primary education it would make sense for there to be more vo-tech options for those who do not adapt well to a more academic environment.

And I absolutely agree with Sam's point that self-education is the kernel of learning.

The necessity of universal education is vastly overstated. Any suitably diligent, motivated, persevering person can attain mastery of anything he wishes.

But aren't they a dying breed in this country? It sure seems that way to me. I see many in the younger generations possessing lesser ambition and
probleming solving abilities. If they can't get it right away then they go on to other things that are easier to accomplish. This doesn't mean all but a significant % which doesn't bode well for our country down the road.

I was really impressed with the German educational structure when I lived there as an exchange student. The basic run down is this (I may be just a tad bit off, it has been 12 years): after primary schooling and 2 years of secondary schooling (kinda like junior high here), a student who wishes to pursue a career in a vocational industry goes to Grundschule, this adds 2 years at the High School level after which they go to vocational school. The next option is Realschule which gives them 4 years at the high school level then they will be ready for some of the lower ranking white collar jobs. The last option is Gymnasium which is 5 years at the high school level, and prepares a student to go to the University. My only issue with this (and I never really asked the question), is how does the child decide? Is it decided for him or her based on grades in their primary education? I don't know. I can, however, see an advantage to letting grades decide what options are available to the student. The parents HAVE to be involved in their child's early education if they have any kind of desire for their children to go to college.

I lived in England and they do pretty much the same thing - same in Japan. It seems some countries have figured out that there is a significant % of students who are either not ready for a higher education or simply not capable of one. Better to find them sooner rather than later and get them into something they like and are productive at for society's benefit.

[rjv]

So whats wrong with school vouchers? Schools get a minimum dollar amount from the government, then for each student enrolled, get some other amount. Allow students the freedom to enroll wherever. Schools that are able to attract many students will have more income, hopefully allowing better teachers, curriculum, whatever. A specialized school with high standards could also attach a surcharge to the money from the voucher (unless its a religious school, church and state and all that), so the "elite" can still be elitists, especially if there is a scholarship program available for those with spectacular ability, but less than spectacular finances.

If you want to go to a football factory, go, get your low education degree, but high football degree, and good luck in life. If you want to be a doctor, go to a school that specializes in cranking out doctors. If you are an "inner city kid" and can't go to anywhere but your local school, guess what, its going to have lots of "inner city kids" going too, which means its going to have lots of money from its vouchers, and be able to hire enough educators, which it can't do know.

and i guess it would help to know if you are referring to private schools in this example as that makes a substantial difference when it comes to vouchers.

I'm not going to claim this doesn't have faults, it does, but it seems far more effective than educating to the lowest common denominator like it feels like public schools do now.

there are some pros to the voucher system and obviously some cons. inner city schools will still have the problems of the inner city, especially gangs and violence but they exist anyway. but a higher salary alone will not be enough to recruit a teacher to an inner city school. a dedicated teacher will want a support system in place to deal with the issues students would face at such schools.

[rjv]

Perhaps this is necessary. I don't see what it has to do with education.

My view on this is pragmatic. Students can either cut the mus or they can't. I don't make any assumptions about their character based on their performance. A chaotic home life, living in a bad neighborhood, psychological trauma -- any number of subjective factors can affect the performance of otherwise apt students of good character. But I don't think it is the place of schools to fix these problems.

well we clearly disagree in this regard. i can personally state that my father made a difference in many student's lives by thinking outside the box when it came to notions of what it was a school's responsibility to address.

[rjv]

But aren't they a dying breed in this country? It sure seems that way to me. I see many in the younger generations possessing lesser ambition and
probleming solving abilities. If they can't get it right away then they go on to other things that are easier to accomplish. This doesn't mean all but a significant % which doesn't bode well for our country down the road.

the sad thing is that some of the most motivated to succeed are the ones we make more of an effort to create obstacles for. they are that much stronger for getting past the hurdles but there are too many that do not get through the cracks.

[Winehole23]

well we clearly disagree in this regard. i can personally state that my father made a difference in many student's lives by thinking outside the box when it came to notions of what it was a school's responsibility to address.

I have no doubt he did, and no doubt that is another pragmatic view of education. I don't really take issue with the personal, conscientious deeds of a teacher so much as the idea of a paternalistic school bureaucracy that aims at the same ends. Social betterment shouldn't be a school function IMO. if individual teachers want to do whatever they can to help their students "outside of the box", more power to them.

[sam1617]

well we clearly disagree in this regard. i can personally state that my father made a difference in many student's lives by thinking outside the box when it came to notions of what it was a school's responsibility to address.

Your father worked outside of the box you stated. He went beyond his responsibility as a teacher to reach the kids, this makes him a good man, and a better teacher, but you can't expect every teacher/administrator to be able to do that, or to want to do that. There just aren't enough good people in the world to do that. Rather than have schools fix the home, mental, physical, or financial issues, why not have community organizations, charitable foundations, churches, or whatever fill that role?

I'm not saying that kids can't be reached, I'm saying that kids can't always be reached by a school. The schools and teachers have too much other responsibility to always give enough attention to a kid in the amount necessary.

[NFGIII]

The phrase "dumbing sown of America" which I first heard back in the 80's is finally coming to fruition IMHO. Read the below paste and see how you do. Interesting stuff.

Remember when grandparents and great-grandparents stated that they only had an 8th grade education? Well, check this out. Could any of us have passed the 8th grade in 1895?
This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas, USA . It was taken from the original do ent on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina, and reprinted by the Salina Journal.

8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895
Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters.
2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph
4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,'' play,' and 'run.'
5. Define case; illustrate each case.
6 What is punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of punctuation.
7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. Deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. Wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. of coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft.. Long at $20 per metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.
Orthography (Time, one hour)
1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthography, etymology, syllabication
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals
4. Give four subs utes for caret 'u.'
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour)
1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of North America.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same la ude?
9. Des cribe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.
Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.

Gives the saying 'he only had an 8th grade education' a whole new meaning, doesn't it?! Also shows you how poor our education system has become and, NO, I don't have the answers!

[Winehole23]

Scientific, modern ideas screwed up education in the US. Maybe irreparably.

[rjv]

Your father worked outside of the box you stated. He went beyond his responsibility as a teacher to reach the kids, this makes him a good man, and a better teacher, but you can't expect every teacher/administrator to be able to do that, or to want to do that. There just aren't enough good people in the world to do that. Rather than have schools fix the home, mental, physical, or financial issues, why not have community organizations, charitable foundations, churches, or whatever fill that role?

I'm not saying that kids can't be reached, I'm saying that kids can't always be reached by a school. The schools and teachers have too much other responsibility to always give enough attention to a kid in the amount necessary.

they try but it is like putting a band aid on a torn artery. i know we differ on this but i think it is necessary to fund certain social programs so as to assist in the success of a demographic that obviously struggles for success, as our city drop out rate clearly indicates.

[rjv]

Scientific, modern ideas screwed up education in the US. Maybe irreparably.

is this intended as sarcasm or is there more to this observation?

[Winehole23]

No sarcasm intended. My main man on this question is John Taylor Gatto.

Specifically, chapters 2, 8 and 9.b

(link fixed.)

[nuclearfm]

Scientific, modern ideas screwed up education in the US. Maybe irreparably.

I agree with that a lot. One of the culprits has to be the "online degree" . Heck just the internet has to take some blame.

Modernity. I want to ride a horse and beat my wife.

[Winehole23]

Modernity. I want to ride a horse and beat my wife.

Suit yourself.

Meanwhile, modernity s us.

[rjv]

No sarcasm intended. My main man on this question is John Taylor Gatto.

(link fixed.)

interesting. and he is an advocate for home schooling so it seems.

[Winehole23]

Sure. Why not? It's not just for fundamentalists and crunchy granola hippies anymore.

[sam1617]

they try but it is like putting a band aid on a torn artery. i know we differ on this but i think it is necessary to fund certain social programs so as to assist in the success of a demographic that obviously struggles for success, as our city drop out rate clearly indicates.

And if they try and fail, being the people on the ground, and most likely to know the issues, what hope does an outside government agency have of coming in and fixing the issues?

I know it sounds cliche to say that it takes a community to raise a child, but that is an accurate statement IMO. Government organizations are not an adequate replacement for community organizations, at least in my opinion.