Joe Wilson Apolgizes to Rahm Emanuel & Obama

[ElNono]

Nothing in the sub le prevents illegal aliens from getting free, tax-payer subsidized health care either.

Who pays the bills when they show up at the emergency room sick or injured and cannot pay?

You guessed it. The taxpayer.

If HR3200 (or whatever plan the President finally proposes) doesn't address this issue, by default, the plan includes health care and health insurance for illegal aliens.

What health insurance you ask? The health insurance established by the law that prohibits hospitals from denying treatment.

The President lied.

In a nuts they're getting exactly the same, not more and not less than what they're getting now. Thanks for making the point.

[Yonivore]

So what's your solution Yonivore?

Do you propose that hospitals check the legality of all patients admitted in emergency rooms?

If they present with non-emergency, non-life-threatening conditions, yes...and deny care, referring them to their country of origin.

If they present with life-threatening conditions, stabilize and transport to their country of origin if -- the transport would be cheaper than the continued treatment. If it would be cheaper to treat them, do so and then have them deported when they're well enough to be.

[Winehole23]

So what's your solution Yonivore?

Do you propose that hospitals check the legality of all patients admitted in emergency rooms?

Even if mandated, hospitals wouldn't do it. Something called the Hippocratic oath, or some such liberal swill.

[Yonivore]

In a nuts they're getting exactly the same, not more and not less than what they're getting now. Thanks for making the point.

The point is that illegal aliens are a huge drain on existing resources and, without resolving it, it continues to be a large part of the cost of medical care. Health care reform should address.

Obama standing up and saying illegal aliens won't get health insurance under my plan is disingenuous at best and a lie at worst. They're getting health insurance now and they'll continue to get it in the future.

[Winehole23]

...

[ElNono]

There's actually an industry behind things like taking pregnant illegal aliens to deliver in US hospitals then back to their countries. It's actually a major problem.
But the solution doesn't isn't to deny emergency care. The solution is to actually secure the borders.

[LnGrrrR]

If they present with non-emergency, non-life-threatening conditions, yes...and deny care, referring them to their country of origin.

If they present with life-threatening conditions, stabilize and transport to their country of origin if -- the transport would be cheaper than the continued treatment. If it would be cheaper to treat them, do so and then have them deported when they're well enough to be.

I'm pretty sure that's how it would work. Isn't that how it works now with legal citizens who are uninsured?

Edit: Minus the deportation obviously

[Yonivore]

Even if mandated, hospitals wouldn't do it. Something called the Hippocratic oath, or some such liberal swill.

Yeah, well, Obama has the perfect Health Care Czar for that. Rahm Emmanuel's brother, Zeke, isn't so keen on the Hippocratic Oath.

Look, I wasn't saying let them die on the emergency room floor. Save their lives, stabilize them, and send them home. If they show up with a toothache, give them directions to the airport, bus station, or whatever.

[Yonivore]

I'm pretty sure that's how it would work. Isn't that how it works now with legal citizens who are uninsured?

Edit: Minus the deportation obviously

No. Otherwise, the emergency rooms wouldn't be packed every day like a free clinic.

[LnGrrrR]

The point is that illegal aliens are a huge drain on existing resources and, without resolving it, it continues to be a large part of the cost of medical care. Health care reform should address.

Obama standing up and saying illegal aliens won't get health insurance under my plan is disingenuous at best and a lie at worst. They're getting health insurance now and they'll continue to get it in the future.

Yes, but the point Obama was trying to make is that they won't get the universal health care that all citizens will. I doubt he was trying to imply that they'd found a magical way to stop illegal citizens from going to the emergency room.

[LnGrrrR]

No. Otherwise, the emergency rooms wouldn't be packed every day like a free clinic.

I have no clue, as I've only gone to military hospitals. I would assume that emergency care should be just for that; emergency care.

If it ISN'T an emergency, don't hospitals have the right to turn away patients? I'm assuming they don't because emergency rooms = more money.

[ElNono]

The point is that illegal aliens are a huge drain on existing resources and, without resolving it, it continues to be a large part of the cost of medical care. Health care reform should address.

It shouldn't. DHS should address the fact that we have very permeable borders. That's where the problem actually is.

Obama standing up and saying illegal aliens won't get health insurance under my plan is disingenuous at best and a lie at worst. They're getting health insurance now and they'll continue to get it in the future.

They're not getting health insurance because they're not getting it now either. No insurance company is involved at all whatsoever in emergency treatment for somebody that has no insurance.

And FWIW, most every country provide emergency medical service regardless of immigration status, and they still do so at a fraction of the cost of what we spend on health.

[Yonivore]

""Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others" (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008).

I know, he meant this in terms of rationing care to those with poor "quality adjusted" life expectancies but, he could just as easily apply the rationale to illegal aliens, no?

[Winehole23]

Look, I wasn't saying let them die on the emergency room floor. Save their lives, stabilize them, and send them home. If they show up with a toothache, give them directions to the airport, bus station, or whatever.

Given the inexperience of hospitals in matters of immigration and the always inveterate incompetence of government, is it conceivable to you that such a policy might -- nay, inevitably would -- eventually lead to US citizens being deported erroneously?

[Yonivore]

It shouldn't. DHS should address the fact that we have very permeable borders. That's where the problem actually is.

That's another argument. I'm talking about not letting them use our hospitals as free clinics. That could be addressed in health care reform.

They're not getting health insurance because they're not getting it now either. No insurance company is involved at all whatsoever in emergency treatment for somebody that has no insurance.

Free care, at tax-payer expense, is health insurance.

And FWIW, most every country provide emergency medical service regardless of immigration status, and they still do so at a fraction of the cost of what we spend on health.

I'm not saying deny emergency care.

[ElNono]

What's the point of shipping them back if they'll be back in the hospital 6 months later, after they crossed the border again? See where the problem is?

[Wild Cobra]

Actually you need to back up your own claim: basically define what 'Everything else' means and where the bill grants these priviledges to illegal aliens. Since you provided the proposed bill, I'm sure you already know where this text is, right?

It doesn't have to say it grants them to illegal aliens. By not addressing the subject, they are covered in all other areas.

And as far as how many illegal aliens file tax returns, in my experience is most of them. If they ever hope to have any kind of immigration sponsorship to become legal residents/citizens, they need 3 years of tax returns at hand.
Unless it's one of those workers that come to work only for the summer, I would argue most of them do file a return.

Are you sure they are illegal? They aren't suppose to work without being here legally some how. I'm pretty sure there is a prevision that the cannot get legal residency if they broke the immigration laws. They could be here legally visiting, have a work visa, etc. You sure they are illegal?

If you are helping criminals, it can affect your immigration status. Did you know that? If they are illegal, I suggest you turn them in.

[Yonivore]

Given the inexperience of hospitals in matters of immigration and the always inveterate incompetence of government, is it conceivable to you that such a policy might -- nay, inevitably would -- eventually lead to US citizens being deported erroneously?

There's a word for this -- justifying an argument through the suggestion of a far-fetched consequence -- I just can't think of it right now.

[ElNono]

That's another argument. I'm talking about not letting them use our hospitals as free clinics. That could be addressed in health care reform.

I'm not saying deny emergency care.

That's an oxymoron.

[Wild Cobra]

Yes, but the point Obama was trying to make is that they won't get the universal health care that all citizens will. I doubt he was trying to imply that they'd found a magical way to stop illegal citizens from going to the emergency room.

Get over it you Obamapologist. He lied. Very simple.

[Yonivore]

What's the point of shipping them back if they'll be back in the hospital 6 months later, after they crossed the border again? See where the problem is?

No, I don't.

I'm for Immigration reform too but, that's another issue.

If could analogize your argument in terms of the current debate, It would be like saying why discharge a COPD patient from the hospital...after all, they're going to be back in the hospital 6 months from now.

[nuclearfm]

Looks like the far right nutjobs (all reminiscences of rational conservatism gone) have decided to cloud their argument with the illegal immigrant debate.

[Wild Cobra]

I know, he meant this in terms of rationing care to those with poor "quality adjusted" life expectancies but, he could just as easily apply the rationale to illegal aliens, no?

I wonder if the "quality of life" exceptions means that we will let the homeless die?

[Winehole23]

It doesn't seem so far fetched to me.

Besides, think of the overhead for hospitals. It won't be cheap to verify the citizenship of everyone without ID, or to settle the lawsuits arising from errors of judgment.

[Yonivore]

Yes, but the point Obama was trying to make is that they won't get the universal health care that all citizens will. I doubt he was trying to imply that they'd found a magical way to stop illegal citizens from going to the emergency room.

They they won't...they get it now.

And, it's not magic. You just quit providing non-emergency care and deport stabilized emergency cases. That would stop it.