In which I extend an olive branch...

[Yonivore]

…to those, in this forum, with whom I most disagree.

Not since Ronald Reagan was president have I self-identified as a Republican and I have never found myself so in line with Democrats that I would ever have identified myself as such. Had I been born a decade or two before I was, that might have been different. With two notable and, yes, significant exceptions, I believe I can most easily be considered to hold a libertarian ideology. Do I hold conservative social and fiscal views? Absolutely, I do; and, unapologetically so. Liberal ones? I can’t think of any in the current iteration of that term – liberal.

I believe in limited government, personal liberty, and – most importantly – the right of the individual to control their lives and the responsibility to accept whatever consequences result from exercising that control. I also believe every decision we make and every act we commit can be – and should be – driven by these fundamental principles. I do believe it is that black and white – there are no shades of gray, no middle ground, no fence to ride. I just believe there is an abundance of disagreement over where the fine line is that separates one side of an issue from another.

As best as I can express and am able to articulate it right now, my views on the national political issues of the day dictate the federal government’s role in my life is limited to three things and I tend to support politicians, political positions, and ideals that are aligned with those. They are:

1) Protecting my inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the fruits of my legitimate labor (property) from being violated by those – foreign or domestic – who would seek to deprive me of them, without good cause, and over whom I cannot hope to prevail and who are not subject to the laws of my State government;

2) Providing services, necessary for the public good, common to all States and where it is in the best interest of the various states, or individual American citizens, the federal government bring continuity and uniformity to the provision of that service, where the various states cannot agree on a method to accomplish continuity and uniformity to the necessary service or, where the various states (through the individuals’ duly elected representatives) decide it would be more effective or efficient for the federal government to provide that service and then, give it the specific authority to perform the service; and

3) Settling disagreements, between the various states or between individuals, from two or more states, where the various states are unable to reconcile.

That’s it. And, right or wrong, agree or disagree, it is through the prism of this understanding I attempt to frame all of my political positions.

Where, in your opinion, my comments in this forum contradict the above, it is either because I didn’t properly apply my own beliefs before hitting the “post” button, I don’t fully understand how my opinion is in conflict, or I haven’t adequately explained how – in my mind – the opinion perfectly agrees with my ideology. Of course, it could just as well be that I’ve plagiarized content that mostly agrees with what I believe but, because of my own laziness, contains obvious contradictions.

Even this post may contain errors to this logic…but, I assure you, it contains no stolen content. I may not have considered all permutations of thought when I arrived at what I just said above. There may actually be four things I think the federal government should do and there may be more than two things over which I diverge from conventional libertarian thought. This is not an invitation for those who dislike my presence here to examine this post for contradictions and logical errors – although it probably will be done. This is pretty much a stream of consciousness exercise and, frankly, this venue isn’t important enough nor is it consequential enough for me devote more than that.

By the way, this is the same rationale I employ for plagiarizing content, with which I agree. Instead of spending an inordinate amount of my precious time coming up with an original way of saying something someone else has already said – probably better than I could have, anyway…I cut ‘n paste. I edit the information, to appear to be an original post, because experience has shown me that you are likely to fully read and respond to something you think a member wrote but will just as likely ignore “quoted” content.

In my opinion, we are not here representing ourselves – we’re here to compare and contrast disembodied positions over contemporary political issues. If our personal opinions, on these topics, were so unique or radical that we were able to propose them here for the first time, we wouldn’t be here posing them…we’d be there, driving opinion and causing forum participants – like us – to parrot our ideas, steal our words, or advance our narratives. Not many of us, in here, have had an original thought on any of the issues we discuss. Our opinions are all driven by the information we receive from other sources…most of which are beyond the lowest levels of the degrees of separation that define our relationship with the rest of the world. Some of us plagiarize, some parrot, some blindly stick to a narrative constructed by others whom we hold to be credible – for whatever reason. In fact, if you notice, we probably spend more time attacking each others’ sources than we do the content of the sources’ ideas. Very, very few of us ever make an original assertion because we have first-hand knowledge of the facts informing what we say. What we post here usually is some variation of an idea already in the public domain. Many times, it’s one that has already been “adjudicated” by world and to a reasonable conclusion; but, since we disagree with the outcome of that judgment, we attempt to re-hash the entire premise here. And re-hash it, we do.

Further, I’m not posting this because I care what you think of me or my opinions. I’m posting this because I care what I think of me and my opinions. And, honestly, I’m sick and tired of the threads, in which I engage, devolving into snarky, vituperative, and hateful flame wars that no longer resemble reasonable debate and that usually stray so far from the original topics they end up a hundred-page hate fest.

I accept fully my disproportionate role in that happening. I have done all those things; snarked, mocked, insulted and name-called my way through a thread. I’d like to believe I don’t usually instigate the devolution of our discussion but, in reality, I’m sure I do it more than my share. There are many posters in this forum, with whom I vehemently disagree on almost everything but, who refuse to get in the gutter when the rest of us roll off the curb of civility. And, there are others who, while occasionally lapsing into insult, generally maintain a respectable tone. I applaud you and hope to, in the future, emulate your demeanor. I won’t always be successful – I’m emotional and passionate about some things – but, when I fail, I hope to eventually be sufficiently humble enough to bring my temperament back around to civil discourse, apologize, and set about re-engaging in the legitimate debate being had.

For those I’ve offended in here, I sincerely apologize. Personally, I don’t believe it’s possible to be offended by the words of others with whom I have no relationship but, I recognize and accept there may be those of you who do. And, for those who think I’m being insincere, even now, I guess future behavior will either be your justification or my vindication. We’ll see.

I will admit I started not to even attempt this exercise because, well, I don’t know any of you personally and, quite frankly, I can count on one hand the number of you I would even want to meet...while, at the same time, recognizing that desire [to meet some of you], itself, is based on nothing more than how you represent yourself here. For all I know, the most reasonable-sounding among us could also only be able to project that air of sanity in this forum. You could be, in reality, a raving lunatic. That’s not to say your opinions don’t interest me, but the anonymity of the internet affords us all the freedom to engage in thought experiments and exercises that can fail miserably without having lasting consequences and without alienating friends and family. I want to maintain that anonymity because; it serves me to do so.

I also want to thank all of you, for helping me to understand the arguments of those, outside the virtual world, with whom I have a relationship but, with whom I also vehemently disagree on political issues. Because of your spirited and heartfelt postings, I’ve been able to avoid unnecessary personal strife. Family and friendship are more important than winning an argument over something which none of us controls. I know which topics to leave alone in polite conversation and I know how to respond when the subjects are broached – as sometimes happens. I also know how far I can go with good-natured razzing without sending my liberal friends (yeah, imagine that) or family members into a frothing-at-the-mouth maniacal rant. You’ve helped tremendously in that regard and I am grateful.

I briefly considered killing myself off – for a second time – and coming back in as someone new like I did with The Ressurrected One (Yeah, I misspelled it then too); but, decided against it. To have done it right, back then, I should not have claimed a relationship between the two iden ies. To do it at all, now, would be counter to what I am attempting with this effort…redefining my iden y in SpursTalk without changing my name or sacrificing my anonymity. Who knows, this may be my way of ultimately leaving SpursTalk…I tell myself I’m going to do just that, every now and then with some variation of, “Why can’t I quit you!” With the way arguments are conducted in here now, it’s not much fun posting anymore. But, my personal cir stances are such that I legitimately spend a lot of time on this medium and can – without sacrificing other aspects of my life – engage in a favorite avocation, politics. So, instead of allowing myself to be driven away – I’ve decided to create this thread in an effort to create a benchmark of accountability for myself and, as a olive branch to those with whom I’ve sparred over the years.

So, there it is; my olive branch. Take it; leave it; ridicule it. I’m not asking any of you to similarly engage in an attempt to redefine your presence here; that’s your business. Let your conscience be your guide. I do this for me. In the grand scheme of things, I recognize it matters little.

If you’ve read this far, thanks for your attention. Carry on.

[clambake]

so....you STILL have nothing but your "black experience?"

[DarkReign]

Reading this later....but it doesnt seem copy+pasted.

Color me interested.

[clambake]

Reading this later....but it doesnt seem copy+pasted.

Color me interested.

i was just being snarky.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

"i'd like to give a laurel...............and hearty handshake to our new"

[nuclearfm]

…exceptions, I believe I can most easily be considered to hold a libertarian ideology. Do I hold conservative social and fiscal views? Absolutely, I do; and, unapologetically so. Liberal ones? I can’t think of any in the current iteration of that term – liberal.

I believe in limited government, personal liberty, and – most importantly – the right of the individual to control their lives and the responsibility to accept whatever consequences result from exercising that control. I also believe every decision we make and every act we commit can be – and should be – driven by these fundamental principles. I do believe it is that black and white – there are no shades of gray, no middle ground, no fence to ride. I just believe there is an abundance of disagreement over where the fine line is that separates one side of an issue from another.

.

Sounds pretty legit, props. I'm all the time for someone exploring their intellectual boundaries. If you're very much into Libertarianism (small or capital L) and liberty, I suggest you read Ayn Rand and some Objectivism, which has many aspects of libertarianism. Rothbard and Ayn Rand had a personal relationship in addition to their intellectual similarities. You also may find that the first modern Libertarians were hippies. Yes, hippies. Rand's comments regarding "liberty" could provide you with some insight or a downward spiral that will either lead you to hate her passionately or commit suicide.

[SnakeBoy]

Where, in your opinion, my comments in this forum contradict the above, it is either because I didn’t properly apply my own beliefs before hitting the “post” button, I don’t fully understand how my opinion is in conflict, or I haven’t adequately explained how – in my mind – the opinion perfectly agrees with my ideology.

I think it is because you're a hypocrite, just like the rest of us.

[hater]

jumping off a sinking ship

[iggypop123]

…to those, in this forum, with whom I most disagree.

Not since Ronald Reagan was president have I self-identified as a Republican and I have never found myself so in line with Democrats that I would ever have identified myself as such. Had I been born a decade or two before I was, that might have been different. With two notable and, yes, significant exceptions, I believe I can most easily be considered to hold a libertarian ideology. Do I hold conservative social and fiscal views? Absolutely, I do; and, unapologetically so. Liberal ones? I can’t think of any in the current iteration of that term – liberal.

I believe in limited government, personal liberty, and – most importantly – the right of the individual to control their lives and the responsibility to accept whatever consequences result from exercising that control. I also believe every decision we make and every act we commit can be – and should be – driven by these fundamental principles. I do believe it is that black and white – there are no shades of gray, no middle ground, no fence to ride. I just believe there is an abundance of disagreement over where the fine line is that separates one side of an issue from another.

As best as I can express and am able to articulate it right now, my views on the national political issues of the day dictate the federal government’s role in my life is limited to three things and I tend to support politicians, political positions, and ideals that are aligned with those. They are:

1) Protecting my inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the fruits of my legitimate labor (property) from being violated by those – foreign or domestic – who would seek to deprive me of them, without good cause, and over whom I cannot hope to prevail and who are not subject to the laws of my State government;

2) Providing services, necessary for the public good, common to all States and where it is in the best interest of the various states, or individual American citizens, the federal government bring continuity and uniformity to the provision of that service, where the various states cannot agree on a method to accomplish continuity and uniformity to the necessary service or, where the various states (through the individuals’ duly elected representatives) decide it would be more effective or efficient for the federal government to provide that service and then, give it the specific authority to perform the service; and

3) Settling disagreements, between the various states or between individuals, from two or more states, where the various states are unable to reconcile.

That’s it. And, right or wrong, agree or disagree, it is through the prism of this understanding I attempt to frame all of my political positions.

Where, in your opinion, my comments in this forum contradict the above, it is either because I didn’t properly apply my own beliefs before hitting the “post” button, I don’t fully understand how my opinion is in conflict, or I haven’t adequately explained how – in my mind – the opinion perfectly agrees with my ideology. Of course, it could just as well be that I’ve plagiarized content that mostly agrees with what I believe but, because of my own laziness, contains obvious contradictions.

Even this post may contain errors to this logic…but, I assure you, it contains no stolen content. I may not have considered all permutations of thought when I arrived at what I just said above. There may actually be four things I think the federal government should do and there may be more than two things over which I diverge from conventional libertarian thought. This is not an invitation for those who dislike my presence here to examine this post for contradictions and logical errors – although it probably will be done. This is pretty much a stream of consciousness exercise and, frankly, this venue isn’t important enough nor is it consequential enough for me devote more than that.

By the way, this is the same rationale I employ for plagiarizing content, with which I agree. Instead of spending an inordinate amount of my precious time coming up with an original way of saying something someone else has already said – probably better than I could have, anyway…I cut ‘n paste. I edit the information, to appear to be an original post, because experience has shown me that you are likely to fully read and respond to something you think a member wrote but will just as likely ignore “quoted” content.

In my opinion, we are not here representing ourselves – we’re here to compare and contrast disembodied positions over contemporary political issues. If our personal opinions, on these topics, were so unique or radical that we were able to propose them here for the first time, we wouldn’t be here posing them…we’d be there, driving opinion and causing forum participants – like us – to parrot our ideas, steal our words, or advance our narratives. Not many of us, in here, have had an original thought on any of the issues we discuss. Our opinions are all driven by the information we receive from other sources…most of which are beyond the lowest levels of the degrees of separation that define our relationship with the rest of the world. Some of us plagiarize, some parrot, some blindly stick to a narrative constructed by others whom we hold to be credible – for whatever reason. In fact, if you notice, we probably spend more time attacking each others’ sources than we do the content of the sources’ ideas. Very, very few of us ever make an original assertion because we have first-hand knowledge of the facts informing what we say. What we post here usually is some variation of an idea already in the public domain. Many times, it’s one that has already been “adjudicated” by world and to a reasonable conclusion; but, since we disagree with the outcome of that judgment, we attempt to re-hash the entire premise here. And re-hash it, we do.

Further, I’m not posting this because I care what you think of me or my opinions. I’m posting this because I care what I think of me and my opinions. And, honestly, I’m sick and tired of the threads, in which I engage, devolving into snarky, vituperative, and hateful flame wars that no longer resemble reasonable debate and that usually stray so far from the original topics they end up a hundred-page hate fest.

I accept fully my disproportionate role in that happening. I have done all those things; snarked, mocked, insulted and name-called my way through a thread. I’d like to believe I don’t usually instigate the devolution of our discussion but, in reality, I’m sure I do it more than my share. There are many posters in this forum, with whom I vehemently disagree on almost everything but, who refuse to get in the gutter when the rest of us roll off the curb of civility. And, there are others who, while occasionally lapsing into insult, generally maintain a respectable tone. I applaud you and hope to, in the future, emulate your demeanor. I won’t always be successful – I’m emotional and passionate about some things – but, when I fail, I hope to eventually be sufficiently humble enough to bring my temperament back around to civil discourse, apologize, and set about re-engaging in the legitimate debate being had.

For those I’ve offended in here, I sincerely apologize. Personally, I don’t believe it’s possible to be offended by the words of others with whom I have no relationship but, I recognize and accept there may be those of you who do. And, for those who think I’m being insincere, even now, I guess future behavior will either be your justification or my vindication. We’ll see.

I will admit I started not to even attempt this exercise because, well, I don’t know any of you personally and, quite frankly, I can count on one hand the number of you I would even want to meet...while, at the same time, recognizing that desire [to meet some of you], itself, is based on nothing more than how you represent yourself here. For all I know, the most reasonable-sounding among us could also only be able to project that air of sanity in this forum. You could be, in reality, a raving lunatic. That’s not to say your opinions don’t interest me, but the anonymity of the internet affords us all the freedom to engage in thought experiments and exercises that can fail miserably without having lasting consequences and without alienating friends and family. I want to maintain that anonymity because; it serves me to do so.

I also want to thank all of you, for helping me to understand the arguments of those, outside the virtual world, with whom I have a relationship but, with whom I also vehemently disagree on political issues. Because of your spirited and heartfelt postings, I’ve been able to avoid unnecessary personal strife. Family and friendship are more important than winning an argument over something which none of us controls. I know which topics to leave alone in polite conversation and I know how to respond when the subjects are broached – as sometimes happens. I also know how far I can go with good-natured razzing without sending my liberal friends (yeah, imagine that) or family members into a frothing-at-the-mouth maniacal rant. You’ve helped tremendously in that regard and I am grateful.

I briefly considered killing myself off – for a second time – and coming back in as someone new like I did with The Ressurrected One (Yeah, I misspelled it then too); but, decided against it. To have done it right, back then, I should not have claimed a relationship between the two iden ies. To do it at all, now, would be counter to what I am attempting with this effort…redefining my iden y in SpursTalk without changing my name or sacrificing my anonymity. Who knows, this may be my way of ultimately leaving SpursTalk…I tell myself I’m going to do just that, every now and then with some variation of, “Why can’t I quit you!” With the way arguments are conducted in here now, it’s not much fun posting anymore. But, my personal cir stances are such that I legitimately spend a lot of time on this medium and can – without sacrificing other aspects of my life – engage in a favorite avocation, politics. So, instead of allowing myself to be driven away – I’ve decided to create this thread in an effort to create a benchmark of accountability for myself and, as a olive branch to those with whom I’ve sparred over the years.

So, there it is; my olive branch. Take it; leave it; ridicule it. I’m not asking any of you to similarly engage in an attempt to redefine your presence here; that’s your business. Let your conscience be your guide. I do this for me. In the grand scheme of things, I recognize it matters little.

If you’ve read this far, thanks for your attention. Carry on.

o glenn

[nuclearfm]

o glenn

Dirty. Dirty.

[Cry Havoc]

Lots of stuff.

TL; DR.











....




Kidding.

It's nice to see something along these lines. I myself have thought about writing something relatively similar -- but I was skeptical of the response it would draw.

I think there are number of nice points you make here, and it's a good show of character and intelligence that you took all the time to type it out so meticulously for our sake (and yours, since you admitted to acting somewhat out of self-interest).

I would love to see a little less flaming on the boards, and not just the political forum. After SO many years of being a solid, reliable place for discussion about sports and anything else, SpursTalk as a whole seems to be finally being pulled downward toward the muck and the mire that cons utes the "general internet population". Some might have noticed I've been responding more harshly to certain posts as of late, and it's because I'm sick of watching this site that I've come to call my "internet home" slowly devolve into a frothing biomass of youtube comments. I don't think it's a coincidence that Kori had to shut down the NBA Forum for several hours or issue a soft-ban on sexual slurs. It's sad to see.

In other words, cool post. I'd definitely like to see this place (that's full of Spurs fans no less) be a little kinder toward each other. Not necessarily going out of your way to be super extra huggy snuggle nice, but I left this forum for a good month or so simply because I was tired of the flamewars. Perhaps with the new NBA season it will settle down a little around here. One can hope.

[Yonivore]

o glenn

Who's glenn?

[Yonivore]

It's nice to see something along these lines. I myself have thought about writing something relatively similar -- but I was skeptical of the response it would draw.

Because it was completely motivated by self-interest, the responses are irrelevant.

I think there are number of nice points you make here, and it's a good show of character and intelligence that you took all the time to type it out so meticulously for our sake (and yours, since you admitted to acting somewhat out of self-interest).

More than somewhat. But, thanks.

In other words, cool post.

Again, thanks.

I started out over at SpursReport with Chris Duel and the gang but, that place turned into a cesspool about 10 years ago (has it been that long?) and I only went back a couple of times to get Duel cranked up. Haven't been back in quite a while.

[SpurNation]

Thanks for the honesty. Thanks for the post. Thanks for being real.

So many of us loose that just to be indifferent.

[Marcus Bryant]

Right. You believe that our system of government and our society should be centered around individual liberty. Every man a king and every woman a queen...of themselves. Greater centralization in government and business threatens this notion. It also threatens the ins ution upon which Western civilization has been based...the family. Individualism is never popular among politicians, but the common people will rue it when it's gone.

[Nbadan]

Forums are addictive, and I know that some semi-regular posters in this forum come back later using other Avatars, its hard to hide where you are politically, but whatever...I'm glad you dropped the RO and came back as Yonivore

[Yonivore]

Forums are addictive, and I know that some semi-regular posters in this forum come back later using other Avatars, its hard to hide where you are politically, but whatever...I'm glad you dropped the RO and came back as Yonivore

The misspelling always bugged me.

[Mr. Peabody]

The misspelling always bugged me.

The whole RO thing must have happened during a period when I wasn't posting. I don't remember that avatar.

[Yonivore]

The whole RO thing must have happened during a period when I wasn't posting. I don't remember that avatar.

I don't remember during what time period it was either. I don't even really know how long I've been posting here...but, it's been a damn long time.

I followed a former regular -- who shall remain nameless -- over here, from SpursReport, after Duel got ridiculously mean-spirited. I think he drank quite heavily.

And, for the record, I'm not a Spurs fan or even a basketball fan. The sport bores me. Kori is aware of this and, yet, she tolerates my presence.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not going to lie: I read that entire piece expecting the rug pulled out from underneath me. In fact I'm still waiting for it (kinda).

I too wish I never got into the proverbial gutter, Yoni. At times I do it because it is entertaining (some days are just better after pointing out how stupid Darrin and Viva can be) but I would like to think that whenever I do it I've made a conscious decision to do it and it is not because I've let my emotions get the better of me. Whether that matters or not is up to each individual but it matters to me.

I used to claim on this board that I was libertarian. I can't claim that any longer. I think the principles behind libertarianism are great but I don't believe they ever work in reality and I view it as more of an idealistic set of goals that we can strive to but for various reasons can and will never meet.

In any event, I personally (for what this is worth) would gladly engage a reborn Yonivore.

[MannyIsGod]

I do want to say one thing. I was never as disturbed as I am today about the way things play out in this forum. Not because of the way they play out on the forum so much but more because the at udes present in "discussion" forums such as this have completely spilled out into every venue of political information we have.

And it is the same reason that many of us are snarky on here I'm sure. Its entertaining. Whether you're doing the arguing on Spurstalk or watching 2 talking heads do it on cable TV. I think that this has done a great disservice to political discourse in this country.

[Yonivore]

I'm not going to lie: I read that entire piece expecting the rug pulled out from underneath me. In fact I'm still waiting for it (kinda).

No rug, dude. From the heart.

I too wish I never got into the proverbial gutter, Yoni. At times I do it because it is entertaining (some days are just better after pointing out how stupid Darrin and Viva can be) but I would like to think that whenever I do it I've made a conscious decision to do it and it is not because I've let my emotions get the better of me. Whether that matters or not is up to each individual but it matters to me.

In my opinion -- and one of the points of my post -- it's only important if it matters to you and those, on here, with whom you enjoy a real-world relationship. Everyone else can suck eggs, it certainly doesn't matter to me.

I used to claim on this board that I was libertarian. I can't claim that any longer. I think the principles behind libertarianism are great but I don't believe they ever work in reality and I view it as more of an idealistic set of goals that we can strive to but for various reasons can and will never meet.

Fair enough but, I think the old Reagan axiom fits here. "I didn't leave the [insert group here], the [insert group here] left me. Libertarian principles haven't changed and, whether or not you believe they're attainable should dictate whether or not you still believe in them.

In any event, I personally (for what this is worth) would gladly engage a reborn Yonivore.

well, pick up your ticket at Will Call, it's waiting...

[Yonivore]

I do want to say one thing. I was never as disturbed as I am today about the way things play out in this forum. Not because of the way they play out on the forum so much but more because the at udes present in "discussion" forums such as this have completely spilled out into every venue of political information we have.

And it is the same reason that many of us are snarky on here I'm sure. Its entertaining. Whether you're doing the arguing on Spurstalk or watching 2 talking heads do it on cable TV. I think that this has done a great disservice to political discourse in this country.

It's nothing new, though...Think of the pamphleteers and soap boxers of yore. , there was a time when our political leaders physically assaulted one another in the very chamber of Wilson's "unprecedented and outrageous" outburst. They challenged each other to duels and slandered one another with impunity.

Really, it's nothing new...it's just that we get to participate.

Interactive governance, I'd say.

[hope4dopes]

Right. You believe that our system of government and our society should be centered around individual liberty. Every man a king and every woman a queen...of themselves. Greater centralization in government and business threatens this notion. It also threatens the ins ution upon which Western civilization has been based...the family. Individualism is never popular among politicians, but the common people will rue it when it's gone.

Marcus, do you think your vision is more difficult to manifeist in a overpopulated highly industrialized, highly specialized, system than say in the pastoral , and simpeler systems of centuries ago.

[DarkReign]

Ive always enjoyed your takes, Yoni. I understand the premise behind this thread as I see your interactions with others, but I dont think it was necessary (even for self-interest's sake).

FWIW, props. I hope your conviction is as strong as your opinion.