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  1. #101
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    Killing hundred of thousands of iraqi civilians is legal? I thought international treaties the US has signed say otherwise.
    Which treaties are you referring to?

  2. #102
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    Here's some negative views saying full employment from now on could be a "natural rate" of 6% or 7% unemployment, without even getting into whether the employed have quality jobs. A job is a job for the stats.





    Unemployment Confronts Obama Rhetoric With Chronic Joblessness

    By Rich Miller

    Sept. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Full employment ain’t what it used to be.

    Economists since the mid-1990s have reckoned that full employment was equivalent to about a 5 percent unemployment rate, taking into account the time required to switch jobs. Now Nobel Prize winner Edmund Phelps and Pacific Investment Management Co. Chief Executive Officer Mohamed El-Erian say the fallout from the deepest recession in more than five decades is driving the so-called natural rate higher, perhaps to 7 percent.

    “We are in the midst of a large and protracted increase in both actual unemployment and its natural rate,” said El-Erian, 51, whose Newport, California-based company manages the world’s largest bond fund. Even with the economy growing, “it will take at least a couple of years” for joblessness to fall to 7 percent from 9.7 percent now.

    That may keep the federal budget deficit near a record $1.6 trillion into next year and might prevent the Federal Reserve from raising interest rates in 2010, said Bruce Kasman, chief economist at New York-based JPMorgan Chase & Co., the second- largest U.S. bank. Elevated unemployment will also “dampen the recovery in consumption and economic growth,” El-Erian said.
    President Barack Obama has highlighted job creation as the ultimate measure of the economy’s health, telling CNN television on Sept. 20 that it is “the single most important thing we can do.” By this measure, the U.S. is still coming up short, he added. That may hurt Obama’s Democratic Party in the November 2010 Congressional elections.

    Rising Unemployment

    Government data to be released Oct. 2 will probably show that unemployment rose to a 26-year high of 9.8 percent in September as companies pared payrolls by 180,000, according to the median forecast of economists surveyed by Bloomberg News.

    Obama, 48, has also pledged a sharp reduction in the budget deficit -- a task that would be made more difficult if unemployment stays high, boosting government spending on people who are out of work and reducing tax revenue. The administration’s mid-term review forecasts a decline in the deficit to $917 billion in 2019 as unemployment drops to 5.2 percent.

    A rise in the natural rate -- the level below which joblessness can’t fall without sparking inflation -- would also create a dilemma for Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke and his central-bank colleagues.

    High unemployment argues for a loose monetary policy now; former Fed governor Lyle Gramley sees the central bank holding the federal-funds rate -- the rate banks charge each other for overnight loans -- near zero until early 2011. Later, there’s a risk Bernanke will ignite inflation if he tries to push the jobless rate down to the 5 percent equilibrium level that’s prevailed in the past.

    ‘Profound’ Implications

    “The implications over the next five to 10 years for fiscal and monetary policy are very, very profound” if the rate has risen, said Neal Soss, chief economist in New York for Credit Suisse Holdings USA Inc., a subsidiary of Zurich-based Credit Suisse Group AG, Switzerland’s second-biggest wealth manager. In that case, the best investment in the medium term might be to buy Treasury Inflation Protected Securities, said Soss, a former Fed official.

    TIPS of all maturities are headed for their fifth straight monthly gain as investors hedge against the potential for inflation, even as it has yet to materialize. The securities have gained 7.49 percent this year compared with a 2.65 percent decline for conventional U.S. government debt, according to the Merrill Lynch U.S. Treasury Inflation-Linked Master Index.

    Permanent Destruction

    Kasman ties an increase in the full-employment rate to the permanent destruction of hundreds of thousands of jobs in industries from housing to finance.

    Since the nadir of the last recession in November 2001, the U.S. has lost 839,000 jobs in the private sector, based on data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics -- the first time that’s happened over the course of a business cycle since 1980-82. Manufacturing and construction were particularly hard hit.

    Permanent layoffs -- for workers who don’t expect to ever regain the same job -- hit a record 53.9 percent of the unemployed in August, according to the bureau. Some 33.3 percent of the jobless had been out of work for 27 weeks or longer last month, down from a record 33.8 percent in July. And at 59.2 percent, the share of Americans who are employed is at its lowest level in 25 years.

    “The labor market is showing signs of very considerable stress,” said Gramley, 82, a senior economic adviser for New York-based Soleil Securities.

    Job-Growth Engines

    Every state, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico have seen unemployment rise during the recession. What’s more, the states that have been job-growth engines in the past -- including California, Florida and Nevada -- have been among the hardest hit as real-estate values plunged, said Lawrence Katz, a professor at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

    The 30 percent decline in house prices during the last three years also makes it hard for some Americans to seek work in another city or state, he said. About 26 percent of U.S. homes with a mortgage were worth less than the amount owed, according to a recent report by analysts Karen Weaver and Ying Shen in New York at Frankfurt-based Deutsche Bank AG, Germany’s biggest lender. Ultimately, as many as 48 percent of mortgages may be “underwater” as house prices fall further, they forecast.

    Katz identifies labor mobility as a key factor in reducing the natural rate of unemployment. Mobility fell last year to its lowest level since records began in 1948, according to the Census Bureau. The so-called national mover rate declined to 11.9 percent of the population in 2008 from 13.2 percent in 2007 as 35.2 million Americans one year or older changed residence.

    Deep Recession

    Mobility is likely to fall further this year in response to the deep recession, said Peter Francese, demographic-trends analyst for New York-based Ogilvy & Mather, which is owned by WPP Plc of London, the world’s largest advertising company.

    “It will plummet so close to zero you’ll be surprised,” said Francese, who founded American Demographics magazine. That will likely depress consumer spending, which historically accounts for about 70 percent of gross domestic product.

    “People who move spend a bundle, on draperies, furniture, rugs,”
    he said.

    A shift in the Beveridge curve is also signaling an increase in the natural, or non-accelerating inflation, rate of unemployment to between 6 percent and 7 percent, said JPMorgan Chase’s Kasman.

    Worker Skills

    Unlike the more popular Phillips curve, which compares unemployment to inflation, the Beveridge curve looks at job openings in relation to employment. A high level of both vacancies and unemployment suggests that workers lack the skills to fill the jobs available and that the natural rate, or NAIRU, is higher.

    The curve, developed by the late British economist William Beveridge, is more accurate at presaging changes in full employment than its Phillips counterpart, according to research by Brookings Ins ution Senior Fellow William ens that was presented at a Federal Reserve Bank of Boston conference last year.

    Many economists, including Gramley, don’t believe the natural rate has risen. Fed policy makers seem to be in that camp. They put the longer-run unemployment rate -- a proxy for the NAIRU -- at 4.8 percent to 5 percent, according to the minutes of their June 23-24 meeting.

    That may be too optimistic, said Phelps, 76, a professor at Columbia University in New York who won the Nobel Prize for Economics in 2006 for his theories on the interplay between inflation expectations and employment.
    “There’s a bit of whistling past the graveyard here,” he said.

    To contact the reporter on this story: Rich Miller in Washington [email protected]
    Last Updated: September 27, 2009 19:10 EDT

    ==========

    So all the "young Americans", esp blacks and Hispanics, that don't finish HS are and will continue to be in deep . Their poverty and joblessness will fuel crime, like poverty and joblessness do everywhere.

    So all you gun nuts buying up all the ammunition are really arming yourself against the black guys on the bottom, not against the Magic Negro on top.

  3. #103
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Are you saying that the bombs hit Japanese "civilians"?
    I think it's pretty obvious they did. Are you positing that every single person hit by the bomb was military personnel?

  4. #104
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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    It was a response to his claim about iraqi civilians. therefore the context wasn't the quote by itself. You are an idiot.
    Are you saying that the bombs hit Japanese "civilians"?
    ..... I'm biting my tongue not to respond to this more vehemently, but you really need to do at least the tiniest amount of research before engaging yourself in a debate with people on this board. Seriously. At least go to wikipedia and read a little bit, because it's better than nothing, which is where you're apparently coming from as a basis of knowledge now.

  5. #105
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    I think it's pretty obvious they did. Are you positing that every single person hit by the bomb was military personnel?
    Cryhavoc: thanks for the lesson.
    LnGrrrR: I believe, that Truman was correct in treating the entire population as non-civilians. There was an idea about Japan that every citizen would fight an invasion with the Americans. They estimated 60000 Americans KIA if they tried to invade mainland Japan. I think he did the right thing. He did give the Japanese govt. a chance to give up b4 both abombs.

  6. #106
    These aren't the droids you're looking for jman3000's Avatar
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    I'm in the group and I have a job. Wooo... go 48 percenters!

  7. #107
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    I'm in the group and I have a job. Wooo... go 48 percenters!
    Lucky you that people will always be going to Whataburger. Hey some advice: stop being such a jerk at drive-thru.
    j/k
    Last edited by spursncowboys; 09-29-2009 at 12:58 PM.

  8. #108
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Cryhavoc: thanks for the lesson.
    LnGrrrR: I believe, that Truman was correct in treating the entire population as non-civilians. There was an idea about Japan that every citizen would fight an invasion with the Americans. They estimated 60000 Americans KIA if they tried to invade mainland Japan. I think he did the right thing. He did give the Japanese govt. a chance to give up b4 both abombs.
    Ah, that old canard about every Japanese person being a 'fighter'.

    Look, if another country invaded America, do you think that only the military would take up arms against them? Of course not. Normal citizens with guns would either take them on solo or form a militia.

    Given this info, would that in turn justify a nuclear strike against the US, in order to save X number of soldiers on the opposite side?

    The loss of life to soldiers is what makes a war so costly. To throw that aside by using a nuclear bomb that you know will kill hundreds of thousands of civilians is the wrong moral choice, I feel.

  9. #109
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    Hey, the young put Obama in the whitehouse now they can reap the benifits of their decision.I think the young republicans may find themselves with a sudden influx on their hands. lol

  10. #110
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    I'm in the group and I have a job. Wooo... go 48 percenters!
    I have a job but am underemployed so i don't know where i satnd

  11. #111
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    Ah, that old canard about every Japanese person being a 'fighter'.

    Look, if another country invaded America, do you think that only the military would take up arms against them? Of course not. Normal citizens with guns would either take them on solo or form a militia.

    Given this info, would that in turn justify a nuclear strike against the US, in order to save X number of soldiers on the opposite side?

    The loss of life to soldiers is what makes a war so costly. To throw that aside by using a nuclear bomb that you know will kill hundreds of thousands of civilians is the wrong moral choice, I feel.
    I believe America to be that kind of country. If I were a bas commie and was wanting to invade America, I would have to think about having to destroy a huge amount of the population. Many strtegists have agreed to that fact.
    You are talking about war as some kind of game. Patton said after we are done killing the enemy we are gonna kill them some more. You go to war to win,
    I don't agree with your reasoning on your ethics. The moral choice is to keep the people who elected you to run their govt. that should be number one.

  12. #112
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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    I have a job but am underemployed so i don't know where i satnd
    Well, you haven't been leg swept yet, but your employer is walking towards you and looks really pissed.

  13. #113
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    I believe America to be that kind of country. If I were a bas commie and was wanting to invade America, I would have to think about having to destroy a huge amount of the population. Many strtegists have agreed to that fact.
    You are talking about war as some kind of game. Patton said after we are done killing the enemy we are gonna kill them some more. You go to war to win,
    I don't agree with your reasoning on your ethics. The moral choice is to keep the people who elected you to run their govt. that should be number one.
    So you think a nuclear strike against a populous city, say, Boston or New York, is morally justified?

    Also, you don't believe in "just war", I'm guessing? Do you know what that is?

    You have a warped sense of morals if you think that morality is whatever lets you keep your job.

  14. #114
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    So you think a nuclear strike against a populous city, say, Boston or New York, is morally justified?

    Also, you don't believe in "just war", I'm guessing? Do you know what that is?

    You have a warped sense of morals if you think that morality is whatever lets you keep your job.
    keeping your job means keeping the population safe IS moral.

  15. #115
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    keeping your job means keeping the population safe IS moral.
    So you think a politician should do whatever it takes to make the populace safe? Should politicians start banning cars, for instance?

  16. #116
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    When did I take any welfare?

    Unemployment insurance is INSURANCE! Employers have a fee deducted to pay for it.
    I wasn't talking about unemployment. I seem to remember you and your mother living off government assistance.. food stamps or section 8. Do your nag your welfare queen mother the same way you nag people here who don't take government handouts?

  17. #117
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I believe America to be that kind of country. If I were a bas commie and was wanting to invade America, I would have to think about having to destroy a huge amount of the population. Many strtegists have agreed to that fact.
    You are talking about war as some kind of game. Patton said after we are done killing the enemy we are gonna kill them some more. You go to war to win,
    I don't agree with your reasoning on your ethics.
    So by your reasoning, no civilians were killed on 9/11.

    You're an idiot.

  18. #118
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    So you think a politician should do whatever it takes to make the populace safe? Should politicians start banning cars, for instance?
    Please just try and be human. Your a smart guy. Stop with this gotcha . A President decides our countries foreign policy. He declares war. The Congress makes laws for us Americans. A President's foreign policy is different from his Domestic. I disagree with a President having so much domestic power but that can be anothter day's post.
    With your same line of thinking, should terrorists have our bill of rights? Should our enemies be able to vote for our president? Should we give welfare to every country we fight?

  19. #119
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    It's funny how people in this forum say that terrorists and our founding fathers were of the same mold.
    And yet my credibility is in question. NO chump, like always your an idiot.

  20. #120
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    I wasn't talking about unemployment. I seem to remember you and your mother living off government assistance.. food stamps or section 8. Do your nag your welfare queen mother the same way you nag people here who don't take government handouts?
    So welfare is ok unless you are against it, and then you aren't allowed to talk about it. What if he saw the traps it creates from his mother?

  21. #121
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    It's funny how people in this forum say that terrorists and our founding fathers were of the same mold.
    And yet my credibility is in question. NO chump, like always your an idiot.
    You just said that all Americans would act like soldiers if the USA were attacked.

    The USA was attacked on 9/11, so according to you there were no US civilians killed on 9/11.

    It's not my fault you don't fully appreciate the implications of your Red Dawn fantasies.

  22. #122
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    You just said that all Americans would act like soldiers if the USA were attacked.

    The USA was attacked on 9/11, so according to you there were no US civilians killed on 9/11.

    It's not my fault you don't fully appreciate the implications of your Red Dawn fantasies.
    Your re ed ass needs to understand what you read.

  23. #123
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    So welfare is ok unless you are against it, and then you aren't allowed to talk about it. What if he saw the traps it creates from his mother?
    I'm not for welfare in anything but cases where the person is flat-out unable to work. I am for things like decent minimum wages that ensure anyone who works hard can have some kind of reasonable standard of living, but apparently that's more government hand-holding than actually taking assistance directly from the government like WC and his mother.

  24. #124
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Please just try and be human. Your a smart guy. Stop with this gotcha . A President decides our countries foreign policy. He declares war. The Congress makes laws for us Americans. A President's foreign policy is different from his Domestic. I disagree with a President having so much domestic power but that can be anothter day's post.
    With your same line of thinking, should terrorists have our bill of rights? Should our enemies be able to vote for our president? Should we give welfare to every country we fight?
    My point is that it is not the politicians' jobs to make us SAFE. It is to create the law. And it's the President's job to make sure that law is faithfully enacted.

    In the view of the Founding Fathers, the President's ability to create foreign policy was limited at best. The legislature both controlled whether we went to war, and what treaties we ratified.

    Of course, I'm not going to argue for any of your strawmen about whether we should provide all the same benefits to those who aren't in our country. (Although I would argue the Bill of Rights applies not only to citizens, but to all who are on American soil.)

    I just hate to see people say that the gov's job is to keep us safe, when that's not their job at all. It's that at ude that allows them to get away with breaking the law, in the name of 'safety'.

  25. #125
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Your re ed ass needs to understand what you read.
    I understand perfectly. You don't think there are any civilians in war if there would be a substantial civilian resistance to attack.

    If you want to back away from that contention, be my guest. People are free to flip-flop if they choose.

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