Frederick Douglass on Slavery & the US Cons ution

[ChumpDumper]

Why not at the time of the Convention or before?

Because you asked.

If you have all that information available for before, during and after, just give it all then.

[Galileo]

Jesus, you checked them all Galileo? SC was the only pro-slavery haven at that point?

Hmm...

It was by far the biggest one. Georgia fell into that catagory as well, but they were very small, not even founded until 1732. They had little clout.

None of the delegates at the Cons utional Convention defended slavery, except three from South Carolina, as far as I know. You can check the record to see if there were others. Dr. Hugh Williamson of North Carolina gave lukewarm support of slavery. Of course, a real racist & defender of slavery would not mince words. Williamson appears to be speaking for his cons uents, not his own personal beliefs.

In the First congress, some representatives from Georgia defended slavery, but I'm not sure these were the same people who were at the Convention. Even if they were at the Convention, I'm not sure they said anything at the Convention.

[Winehole23]

We have passed through the furnace and have not been consumed.

This.

[Galileo]

Because you asked.

If you have all that information available for before, during and after, just give it all then.

I don't have it all memorized for every delagate.

Some, in the North, owned slaves earlier in their lives, but then gave it up.

Most of the Southern delegates owned slaves. James Madison is one who is usually labeled as a large slave owner. But it is unclear if he owned any slaves until his father died in 1801.

Until that time, Madison's father owned the plantatation, but young James was rarely home. In 1801, Madiosn was the Secretary of State for eight years, and then the President for another eight years. He was busy getting the Lousiana Purchase going, and getting the Lewis & Clark Expidition off the ground, and then was fighting the War of 1812. So Madison did not really own and live on the planatation until he was an old man, when he retired in 1817 at the age of 66.

Not sure what people expected the old geezer to do, as he was still President James Monroe's chief advisor for anther eight years, until 1825, and then he was Andrew Jackson's advisor from 1828 until 1834. Madison was also the Rector of the newly founded University of Virginia after Jefferson died in 1826, and before that, helping Jefferson found it. Madison was also a key delegate at the Virginia Cons utional Convention of 1829/1830, where slavery was debated, and rights for people were expanded, and slave power decreased. Madison's disciples then entered the Virginia state legislature, where another fiery attempt to get rid of slavery, or at least reduce its power ensued in 1832.

By 1834, Madison was 83 years old and ready to kick the bucket, and he died in 1836.

[ChumpDumper]

So Madison did not really own and live on the planatation until he was an old man, when he retired in 1817 at the age of 66.

No he really owned the plantation and the slaves on it from 1801 on.

[Galileo]

No he really owned the plantation and the slaves on it from 1801 on.

He did, but he didn't have time to deal with it until 1817. I'm sure you would have rushed back there and let all the slaves go, and left your wife des ute.

[ChumpDumper]

He did, but he didn't have time to deal with it until 1817. I'm sure you would have rushed back there and let all the slaves go, and left your wife des ute.

He had about 100 slaves pretty consistently from 1801 on.

Why wouldn't his wife just be with him?

He talked the talk against slavery, he just never walked the walk. He also believed that if blacks were freed, they should live separately from whites.

[Winehole23]

He did, but he didn't have time to deal with it until 1817. I'm sure you would have rushed back there and let all the slaves go, and left your wife des ute.

Chumpy is col' blooded. Won't give poor Madison a break.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't think a man who owned 100 slaves could really be considered poor. He didn't even free his slaves upon his death like Washington did.

[Winehole23]

I don't think a man who owned 100 slaves could really be considered poor. He didn't even free his slaves upon his death like Washington did.

No, I meant Galileo's hysterical suggestion that you would somehow have Madsion and his family starve for his professed values. That was the *poor Madison* I was referring to.

[ChumpDumper]

I know, I just wanted to drive the point home with the number.

[Galileo]

I don't think a man who owned 100 slaves could really be considered poor. He didn't even free his slaves upon his death like Washington did.

That's because Washington profited from slavery. He died in 1799, when the slave economy was still cookin', so he had enough money to free them. Also, Washington's wife had been the richest women in the United States.

Madison did not profit from slavery like Washington. Madison's plantation lost a lot of money after he inherited it. As I said earlier, Madison was not around to make decisions until 1817. He was busy fighting the Barbary Pirates so the rest of America could enjoy the fruits of free trade in the Mediterrainean Sea. Madison also was supposed to go home in the summer of 1813, but got so sick that he almost died. Dolley Madison nursed him back to health.

Also, Dolley Madison's son (Madison's step-son) was a drunk and a gambler, and Dolley had to constantly bail him out, spending $50,000.

When Madison first inherited his father's estate, Madison was only making $5000 per year as Secretary of State.

Washington also didn't have a wife when he died. Madison did, so he had to leave his stuff to her. Dolley Madison was supposed to free the slaves, but didn't, even though Madison left her Madison's papers, worth $100,000.

The slaves in Haiti got freed back in 1809, how they doin' now?

[Galileo]

He had about 100 slaves pretty consistently from 1801 on.

Why wouldn't his wife just be with him?

He talked the talk against slavery, he just never walked the walk. He also believed that if blacks were freed, they should live separately from whites.

That's liberal bull .

[Galileo]

You do know that many prominent wealthy white people chose not to own slaves, even though it was allowed. Were they disobeying the law?

Yes, it was illegal to free slaves at that time.

[ChumpDumper]

That's because Washington profited from slavery. He died in 1799, when the slave economy was still cookin', so he had enough money to free them. Also, Washington's wife had been the richest women in the United States.

Madison did not profit from slavery like Washington. Madison's plantation lost a lot of money after he inherited it. As I said earlier, Madison was not around to make decisions until 1817. He was busy fighting the Barbary Pirates so the rest of America could enjoy the fruits of free trade in the Mediterrainean Sea. Madison also was supposed to go home in the summer of 1813, but got so sick that he almost died. Dolley Madison nursed him back to health.

Also, Dolley Madison's son (Madison's step-son) was a drunk and a gambler, and Dolley had to constantly bail him out, spending $50,000.

When Madison first inherited his father's estate, Madison was only making $5000 per year as Secretary of State.

Washington also didn't have a wife when he died. Madison did, so he had to leave his stuff to her. Dolley Madison was supposed to free the slaves, but didn't, even though Madison left her Madison's papers, worth $100,000.

So basically what you are saying is that Madison sold out his antislavery beliefs for money.

I completely agree.

The slaves in Haiti got freed back in 1809, how they doin' now?

So basically what you are saying is that Haitians would be better of if they were still slaves.

I completely disagree.

[ChumpDumper]

That's liberal bull .

They are matters of fact -- and as such very much true.

You are trying to make excuses for his not practicing what he preached. That is bull .

[Galileo]

No, I meant Galileo's hysterical suggestion that you would somehow have Madsion and his family starve for his professed values. That was the *poor Madison* I was referring to.

Actually, Dolly Madison almost starved to death, after James died. Paul Jennings a former slave who had been freed by the Madison's, gave Dolly food and money so she would not starve to death. This is even though Dolly had once owned Paul Jennings.

As I said before, James Madison almost bankrupted himself, trying to support 100 slaves, 2/3 of whom were too old, too young or too infirm to work.

Madison, unlike Jefferson, was not an extravangant spender, so you cannot blame Madison for what happened.

Will of President Madison

I, James Madison of Orange County do make this my last will and testament, hereby revoking all wills by me heretofore made.

http://www.jamesmadisonmus.org/textpages/will.htm

[ChumpDumper]

When Madison first inherited his father's estate, Madison was only making $5000 per year as Secretary of State.

That's over $60,000 in today's money.

Add that to his land, slaves and plantation income and cry me a river about his finances.

[Galileo]

So basically what you are saying is that Madison sold out his antislavery beliefs for money.

I completely agree.

So basically what you are saying is that Haitians would be better of if they were still slaves.

I completely disagree.

That's neocon bull .

[ChumpDumper]

Actually, Dolly Madison almost starved to death, after James died. Paul Jennings a former slave who had been freed by the Madison's, gave Dolly food and money so she would not starve to death. This is even though Dolly had once owned Paul Jennings.

As I said before, James Madison almost bankrupted himself, trying to support 100 slaves, 2/3 of whom were too old, too young or too infirm to work.

Madison, unlike Jefferson, was not an extravangant spender, so you cannot blame Madison for what happened.

Will of President Madison

I, James Madison of Orange County do make this my last will and testament, hereby revoking all wills by me heretofore made.

http://www.jamesmadisonmus.org/textpages/will.htm

Looks like he was impressively far from bankrupt, but thanks for including the tidbit that he wanted to leave money to an organization he founded that was dedicated to getting freed blacks shipped out of the settled states. It helps to prove my contention he didn't believe free blacks and whites couldn't or shouldn't live together in the US.

He did many great things in his life, but he was not without flaws.

[Galileo]

Looks like he was impressively far from bankrupt, but thanks for including the tidbit that he wanted to leave money to an organization he founded that was dedicated to getting freed blacks shipped out of the settled states.

So you oppose freeing the slaves now? Do you have something against Liberia? Oh, that's right, they don't have the U.S. Cons ution there.

[ChumpDumper]

So you oppose freeing the slaves now?

No. It was Madison who was opposed to freeing his own slaves.

Do you have something against Liberia?

I have something against the belief that free blacks and whites cannot live together in the US and must be separated.

I did not found an organization dedicated to that end.

Madison did.

[Galileo]

No. It was Madison who was opposed to freeing his own slaves.I have something against the belief that free blacks and whites cannot live together in the US and must be separated.

I did not found an organization dedicated to that end.

Madison did.

Madison was in favor of freeing his slaves, but after he died, Dolly was in charge of evereything.

Paul Jennings:

"Mr. Madison, I think, was one of the best men that ever lived. I never saw him in a passion, and never knew him to strike a slave, although he had over one hundred; neither would he allow an overseer to do it. Whenever any slaves were reported to him as stealing or "cutting up" badly, he would send for them and admonish them privately, and never mortify them by doing it before others. They generally served him very faithfully."

http://docsouth.unc.edu/neh/jennings/jennings.html

[ChumpDumper]

Madison was in favor of freeing his slaves, but after he died, Dolly was in charge of evereything.

When Madison himself was alive and in charge, he was not in favor of freeing his slaves. Otherwise, he would have freed his slaves.

[Galileo]

When Madison himself was alive and in charge, he was not in favor of freeing his slaves. Otherwise, he would have freed his slaves.

It wasn't legal to do it at that time. They would have been tracked and hunted down by evil slave hunters.

Attacks on James Madison & the Cons ution are just a clever way to apolgize for the racist war on drugs and the racist war on terror.

You are a racist.