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Tennis, the same.
McEnroe was the last player to play good with a wood racket.
I wonder a little bit about commensurability. Equipment makes a difference.
I don't doubt Nicklaus would be as great today, or Woods in Nicklaus's day, on talent alone.
But did the two men really play the same game?
Experiment: Next time you play golf, go out with some persimmon woods, some stainless steel irons and an Acushnet Bullseye putter.
Is it much different?
Tennis, the same.
McEnroe was the last player to play good with a wood racket.
lol.
I'm too tired but CC is the gift that keeps on giving.
Golden Bear > Tiger
Performance in Majors, through age 33:
Made Cut
Bear 50
Tiger 52
Bear's career 131
Tiger to go 79
Year's needed 20 (Tiger age 53)
Top 10
Bear 37
Tiger 32
Bear's career 73
Tiger to go 41
Year's needed 11 (Tiger age 44)
Top 5
Bear 33
Tiger 26
Bear's career 56
Tiger to go 30
Year's needed 8 (Tiger age 41)
Top 3
Bear 28
Tiger 23
Bear's career 46
Tiger to go 23
Year's needed 6 (Tiger age 39)
Top 2
Bear 23
Tiger 20
Bear's career 37
Tiger to go 17
Year's needed 5 (Tiger 38)
Wins
Bear 12
Tiger 14
Bear's career 18
Tiger to go 4
Year's needed 1 (Tiger age 34)
The window is closing fast.
POINT FOR EXCELLENCE SYSTEM
Make Cut = 1 point
Top 10 = 3 points
Top 5 = 4 points
Top 3 = 6 points
Top 2 = 7 points
Win = 10 points
Points
Through Age 33
Bear = 272
Tiger = 250
Bear's career = 516
Tiger to go = 266
Year's needed = 7 (Tiger age 40)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Nicklaus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Woods
Golden Bear > Tiger
Listen, you should read up on it.
It's do ented fact that blacks were bred to be bigger and stronger.
1) They would grab big black males and lock them in a room with big black females. They fed the black males meat, to make them stronger, before they did this.
By the time of american slavery, dog and horse breeding practices were well-established and commonly known. Slaves were nothing more than property, and they were treated the same way.
2) Generations of slaves working long hours of slave labor, intense physical labor, makes you strong. This also contributed to it.
There is a wealth of history about this issue, you really should get your facts straight before you deny that america practiced selective breeding with slaves.
So if you and Darwin are correct about natural selection we should all be huge black men in only 25 million years from now?
Maybe you could just tell us what you read.
It's customary to provide links, MH: if you despise the ignorance that reigns here, please correct it. We still need to find out if Jimmy the Greek was right or not. Can you help us resolve this one burning question at least?
Don't hoard the knowledge, dude. Not everybody reads the same thing. I for one would like to know who you are relying on.
If what we're talking here about is "breeding programs" for slaves in North America, that sounds a fairly specialized area of study to me. Perhaps you can find it in your heart, Miami Heat, to forgive this board for not being on the same page.
Winehole23 1
MimaiHeat 0
From the book, Slave Trading in the Old South, by Frederic Bancroft, Chapter IV. The Importance of Slave-Rearing, p. 68:
"But what did Southerners closely associated with slavery say about slave-rearing? It is their evidence that is decisive.
And advertisement in Charleston, South Carolina, in 1796, offereing fifty prime negroes for sale contained theses sentences: *** "they are not Negroes selected out of a larger gang for the purpose of a sale, but are prime, their present Owner, with great trouble and expense, selected them out of many for several years past. They were purchased for stock and breeding Negroes, and to any Planter who particularly wanted them for that purpose, they are a very choice and desirable gang." At all times "breeding slaves", "child bearing women", "breeding period", "too old to breed", etc. were familiar terms.
Slave-rearing early became the source of the largest and often the only regular profit of nearly all slaveholding farmers and of many planters in the upper South. Especially in Virginia, as Francis Corbin wrote in 1819, "miserabile dictur our principle profit depends" on the increase of our slaves. In a Virginia case in 1848, the Court said that "the scantiness of net profit from slave labor has become proverbial, and that nothing is more common than actual loss, or a benefit merely in the slow increase of capital from propagation."
(From pg. 75 of the same chapter)
The wife of a Georgia planter wrote that "many indirect inducements [are] held out to reckless propagation, which has a sort of premium offered to it in the consideration of less work and more food counterbalanced by none of the sacred responsibilities which hallow and ennoble the relation of parent and child; in short, as their lives are for the most those of mere animals, their increase is literally mere animal breeding, to which every encouragement is given, for it adds to the master's live-stock and the value of his estate."
The most careful planters everywhere considered slave-rearing of prime importance. One in Alabama, who was so liberal-minded, that he encouraged his negroes to read the Bible, described his own prosperity by saying that his slaves had been "generally healthy and very prolific, and their increase is no small matter in the item of profits." Another expressed the common opinion: "Well treated and cared for, and moderately worked, their natural increase becomes a source of great profit to their owner. Whatever therefore tends to promote their health and render them prolific, is worthy his attention." "With us the proprietor's largest source of prosperity is in the negroes he raises", said Secretary of the Treasury Howell Cobb, in 1858, when also president of the Georgia Cotton Planters' convention.
John C. Reed--also a Georgian, graduated from Princeton in 1854 and afterward a lawyer in his native State--had rare knowledge of social condition and was clear and frank in his convictions. He wrote: "Although the profits of slave-planting were considerable, the greates profit of all was what the master thought of and talked of all the day long,--the natural increase of his slaves, as he called it. His negroes were far more to him than his land." *** "Really the leading industry of the South was slave-rearing. The profit was in keeping the slaves healthy and rapidly multiplying. This could be done at little expense in agriculture where even the light workers were made to support themselves." Accordingly, he said, "many of these older sections turned, from being agricultural communities, into nurseries, rearing slaves for the younger States where virgin soil was abundant."
Last edited by MiamiHeat; 10-03-2009 at 10:27 PM.
Slave rearing = selective breeding?
Do you have a citation about selective breeding?
This Jimmy the Greek thing is really beginning to gnaw at me.
Then there is also books by
Norde, G.S. (1985). From genesis to phoenix: The breed- ing of slaves during the domestic slave era
and many books that tell the first hand accounts of freed or runaway slaves.
It sounds like you've already done all the relevant homework, MH . Please cut to the chase.
Was Jimmy the Greek right, or not?
Last edited by Winehole23; 10-03-2009 at 10:42 PM.
I don't know peer-reviewed studies that test this hypothesis, but I've been hearing it for long. Not only this, but that the owners of sugar plantations in the Caribbean Islands, by having the first opportunity to pick slaves, would pick those more healthier and in better physical conditions, something that resulted in the superior athletic prowess of Caribbeans.The athletic prowess of Jamaicans
published: Wednesday | November 22, 2006
William Aiken
The sprinting prowess of African-Americans and Afro-Caribbean people in general and Jamaicans in particular is legendary and is demanding of serious scientific enquiry and research.
It cannot be coincidence that over the years the fastest men and women in the world were born in Jamaica. Herb McKinley, Arthur Wint, Donald Quarrie, Linford Christie, Donovan Bailey, Ben Johnson, Bert Cameron, Michael Frater, Asafa Powell, Merlene Ottey, Sherone Simpson, Veronica Campbell, Deon Hemmings, Bridgette Foster-Hylton and Sanya Richards come readily to mind.
Neither is it a coincidence that in the 2005 World Championships 100-metre men's final, three of the eight finalists were Jamaicans - Michael Frater, Dwight Thomas, and Asafa Powell, while Kim Collins, the defending champion, was from St. Kitts and Nevis, while three others were African-Americans, the latter representing a country over 100 times the population of Jamaica.
Notable Caribbean sprinters include Kim Collins, Hasley Crawford, Ato Bolden and Darrel Brown from Trinidad and Tobago, Obadele Thompson from Barbados, while the sprinting prowess of the Bahamian women is well known. The great black (and beautiful) French female sprinters Marie-Jose Perec and Christine Arron are both from the Caribbean French Island, Guadeloupe, while Bruny Surin a great black Canadian sprinter was born in Haiti.
While it is clear that good sport administration, excellent coaching, proper nutrition and adequate funding and facilities are vital to achieving athletic greatness, in the absence of raw athletic sprinting ability this will not occur.
Responsive testosterone
I wish to propose a hypothesis that addresses not only the aspect of Jamaica's raw athletic talent, but also encompasses an explanation of seemingly diverse phenomena as our high incidence of prostate cancer (one study found it to be by far the highest in the world at 304 / 100,000 men / year), our high crime rate (murder capital of the world status earlier this year), our high road traffic accident and fatality rate, and our alleged high levels of promiscuity.
What do these seemingly disparate phenomena, characteristic of Jamaican life, have in common? On close examination these phenomena are manifestations of high levels of aggressiveness and drive, high libidos, highly efficient muscles from persons of lean body mass and black ethnicity. On closer scrutiny all of these phenomena are either related to high circulating levels of testosterone or alternatively to high levels of responsiveness of testosterone receptors to circulating testosterone.
It has already been shown that the testosterone receptors of blacks are different genetically to those of whites and this difference confers increased responsiveness to testosterone. I propose that Jamaicans of primarily African descent have even greater testosterone responsiveness than blacks anywhere else.
The middle passage
But why should this be? I believe the answer to this lies in the slave ship routes within the Caribbean and the New World.
First, let us assume that all Africans who survived the trek from the African interior to the West African coast and subsequently the middle passage would have been more or less subject to the same inhumane conditions which would have produced a severe selection pressure that enabled only the fittest slaves to survive the journey.
My hypothesis is that for each incremental increase in the journey travelled, once the slave ships entered the Caribbean, there was a corresponding selection pressure which ensured that only the fittest of the fit slaves survived and furthermore the traits which enabled survival were somehow dependent on high levels of responsiveness to testosterone.
Characteristics such as aggression, determination, drive, strong bones, lean body mass, high surface area to body mass ratio, highly efficient and responsive muscles were probably all important for survival and are testosterone-dependent.
Since Jamaica was one of the last stops to be made by the slave ships it ensured that only the most resilient and fittest of slaves were alive to disembark in Jamaica.
This hypothesis is supported by a number of observations. African-Americans and Afro-Caribbean people are represented far more frequently in sprinting events than persons from Africa. Even more interesting is that as one goes westward within the Caribbean, sprinting prowess becomes more prevalent and reaches its peak by the time Jamaica and Bahamas are reached.
This hypothesis in no way minimises the important contributions of good sport administration, excellent coaching and proper nutrition but rather looks at one aspect of the puzzle in attempting to explain the raw athletic talent that seems to be disproportionately high in Jamaicans.
Dr. William Aiken is the head of Urology at the University Hospital of the West Indies and president of the Jamaica Urological Society; email: [email protected].
Oh, and thanks for the citations, MH.
Good post, mogrovejo. Jamaica's blacks are in fact descendants of slaves from the caribbean slave routes.
600,000 (scholars estimate) africans were taken to Jamaica by the slave traders, and the plantation owners obviously chose the best of the stock.
It's been known for a long time. Slavery made these super athletes. It's genetics..
No it isn't.
Testosterone responsiveness?
This sounds testable. Did Doctor Aiken ever find out?I propose that Jamaicans of primarily African descent have even greater testosterone responsiveness than blacks anywhere else.
God damn dude. Not being facetious here... You know the word for ing everything. Continually impressed by your command of the language.
You should get into radio or something. Carry on....
Winehole has a point about the golf issue
Tiger woods has a ton of high tech, new gadgets and gizmos
I wonder how much better Nicklaus would have been with them
As for the slave-athlete issue, it's quite obvious, and there is a lot of evidence about it. It's common sense.
Anyone denying it probably has an ulterior motive behind their rebuttals...
I think the point is more that bigger sweetspots equalize the whole field.
Nicklaus was a great target golfer, and a pretty damn good putter. In his physical prime, he'd do great now.
Last edited by Winehole23; 10-03-2009 at 11:27 PM.
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