Wages of Wins: Once Upon a Time in Phoenix

[duncan228]

Once Upon a Time in Phoenix

Once upon a time, the Phoenix Suns were the best team in the Western Conference. The phrase “once upon a time” often refers to a time period in the distance past. But in this instance, “once upon a time” actually refers to 20 months ago (as noted in a table posted in February of 2008).

Although Phoenix was on top of the West, it was clear in February of 2008 that the reign of the Suns was going to soon end. The Lakers had just traded for Pau Gasol, and this move was likely going to send the Lakers to the top of the conference. In response to this move, the Suns sent Shawn Marion to the Miami Heat for Shaquille O’Neal.

Two arguments were advanced at the time of this move:

1. The Suns – as they were constructed on February 1 of 2008 – were not going to win a le in 2008. And since there was a good chance Marion was going to leave Phoenix anyway, something had to be done.

2. The trade for Shaq was not going to bring a le to Phoenix. In fact, this move would make Phoenix worse.

Now that 20 months have passed – and Shaq has moved on to Cleveland — we can now completely review the Shaq era in Phoenix. This review consists of one sentence: A le didn’t come to Phoenix and the Suns did indeed decline.

Once Upon a Time Last Season

In 2008-09, the Suns not only failed to contend, the team failed to make the playoffs. And when we look at Table One we can see part of the reason for this failure.

Table One: The Phoenix Suns in 2008-09

Last season the Suns were led in Wins Produced by Steve Nash. Although Nash produced 11 wins, his 0.213 WP48 [Wins Produced per 48 minutes], this was his lowest mark since arriving in Phoenix in 2004. Nash is now 35 years of age, so one suspects age is the primary reason why he declined.

Unfortunately for the Suns, age also impacted the productivity of Shaq. O’Neal’s WP48 of 0.167 was actually his best mark since 2005-06. But it was a far cry from the 0.332 mark that Shaq averaged before he passed 30 years of age.

Next on the list is Grant Hill. Like Shaq, Hill was above average. But his WP48 of 0.149 was far below the 0.274 average mark he posted in Detroit (from 1994-95 to 1999-00).

If we move further down the list we see Amare Stoudemire. In 2004-05, 2006-07, and 2007-08 (Stoudemire missed virtually all of the 2005-06 season), Stoudemire posted a WP48 mark in excess of 0.200. Last year – primarily due to injury, his mark was only 0.106.

So we see, except for the effect of age and injury, Phoenix might have had an incredible team last year. Just imagine a team with Nash, Shaq, Hill, and Stoudemire both healthy and in their prime. These four players alone could produce more than 70 wins in a season. At least, once upon a time they could. Unfortunately, age will eventually lead to less production and injuries will happen.

Are Better Times Coming?

As a consequence, Phoenix struggled last years and now this team has to do quite a bit to get back to the top of the Western Conference. In the summer of 2009, though, the first steps back didn’t look very impressive. In the draft the Suns selected Earl Clark, a player who was below average in college last year (even if we think of him as a small forward).

After drafting Clark, the Suns then signed Channing Frye. According to ESPN.com (and Yahoo.com), Frye is currently expected to start for the Suns in 2009-10. Just to review, Frye

■ was a lottery pick of the New York Knicks (and Isiah Thomas) in 2005.

■ was traded to Portland after two seasons in New York.

■ started 94 of 274 games with the New York Knicks and the Portland Trail Blazers.

■ has produced -1.4 wins and posted a -0.012 WP48 in his career.

If we follow the permutations of the starting line-up in Phoenix, we now see that Phoenix has gone from Shawn Marion, to an old Shaquille O’Neal, and now to Channing Frye. One doesn’t need Wins Produced to see that this isn’t progress.

When we look over the current depth chart in Phoenix, it’s not immediately apparent how Phoenix is going to match the team’s win total from last year (a record, once again, that wasn’t even good enough to make the playoffs).

Potential First String

PG: Steve Nash [11.0 Wins Produced, 0.213 WP48]

SG: Jason Richardson [7.6 Wins Produced, 0.152 WP48]

SF: Grant Hill [7.6 Wins Produced, 0.149 WP48]

PF: Amare Stoudemire [4.3 Wins Produced, 0.106 WP48]

C: Channing Frye [-2.3 Wins Produced, -0.146 WP48]

Potential Second String

PG: Goran Dragic [0.1 Wins Produced, 0.006 WP48]

SG: Leandro Barbosa [4.6 Wins Produced, 0.130 WP48]

SF: Jared Dudley [1.6 Wins Produced, 0.065 WP48]

PF: Louis Amundson [1.5 Wins Produced, 0.067 WP48]

C: Robin Lopez [-1.5 Wins Produced, -0.114 WP48]

The Wins Produced of these players only sum to 34.5, suggesting Phoenix is going to have problems in 2009-10.

Despite these numbers, fans of the Suns will emphasize the injury to Stoudemire. Had Amare been healthy last year the Suns probably would have made the playoffs. And if Stoudemire is healthy this next season – and as productive as he was two years ago – then Phoenix should win more than half their games.

Contention in the West, though, is going to require more than this. It appears that the following teams will contend for the conference le (listed in alphabetical order): Dallas Mavericks, LA Lakers, Portland Trail Blazers, and San Antonio Spurs. And we expect the Denver Nuggets, New Orleans Hornets, and the Utah Jazz will make the playoffs. Phoenix does appear to be the leading candidate to complete the playoff picture out West. But it seems unlikely that this team will contend for a le.

So where will Phoenix go from here? Nash and Hill are not getting any younger. After these two talents, though, the only above average performers on the roster are Stoudemire, Richardson, and Barbosa. In other words, given the age of Nash and Hill, Phoenix is going to have to add some talent if it hopes to contend again in the future. Until that happens, Phoenix fans are simply going to have think about “Once upon a time, Phoenix was the best team in the Western Conference….”

- DJ

[JMarkJohns]

Wrote this last march, shopped it around, but nobody bought it. Didn't get too much feedback beyond disbelief that I was critical of Sarver, or one "I can't print that" about my critiques of Sarver. Oh well.. their loss. As for most who might be surprised that I'm defending itty-bitty ball, that's not necessarily what I'm saying. In fact, my explanation as to why I'm not is another article entirely. In truth, I was OK with a number of moves/move-ons that occured, but within the greater context, I just couldn't pretend like the moves were made by people who knew what they were doing.

The Death Of Fun
By JMarkJohns

Dearly departed: We are gathered here today, not to celebrate what was, but rather lament what could have been.

Family, friends, fans… It didn’t have to end this way.

The year is 2004. The iconic and much beloved owner of the Phoenix Suns, Jerry Colangelo, sells his majority shares to Arizona-raised and educated, Robert Sarver. Fans of the franchise are excited to see ownership of the Suns stay localized. Surely Sarver would understand the plight of fans desperate for their first NBA Championship.

Roughly 40 years after the team’s ins ution in the “Valley of the Sun” fans could sense a le was close. The fanbase was so hungry they could taste it. Along the way they gobbled up everything Robert Sarver threw their way; about how fiscal responsibility was the best way to keep the team compe ive, and how having only content and happy players gave the team the chemistry necessary to win.

So blinded by optimism were they to see the sly hand of sabotage moving season after season. Shielded by the many promises, fans were too distracted by the beauty they beheld on the court to notice rotating door off it.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Prize”

Things started off with a boon. Sarver inherited a team with talent at every position but one: point guard. He went out and backed up his big talk of les by paying for prodigal Sun, Steve Nash, a multiple-time All-Star PG who was returning to Phoenix six seasons after requesting a trade out of town. The youthful talent was the framework of this metaphorical Ferrari. Nash was the motor.

Expectations outside of Phoenix were low. Many thought the Suns too young to be truly compe ive. It made sense, being that the Suns had the youngest average age of any team in the League that season.

Still, there was a spark. They played with passion and reckless abandon every night. You could see they were enjoying themselves. Their motto, “Seven Second Or Less,” spoke to their ability to score within the first seven seconds of the 24-second offensive shot clock. They quickly became media darlings, providing the shot in the arm that the League had been missing for years. Their final point total routinely hit 120 in a league at a time when just over 95 was the average.

Basketball was fun again.

Despite losing to the much more experienced San Antonio Spurs in the Western Conference Finals, optimism flooded the streets. A le was imminent. It wasn’t a question of if, or even when, but rather how many.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Lies”

The 2005 offseason became crucial to the Suns future. Key players were up for free agency or contract extensions and the Suns needed to address the issues of experience and toughness exposed in their series versus the Spurs.

Sarver, unlike most owners, did more than just sign the checks. He dealt with contract negotiations himself, only occasionally taking the input of those hired for the process.

Sarver told the players he’d allow the market to dictate the total of the extensions he’d offer. Only, once the market surprised Sarver with the cost, Sarver balked at the expense it would take to re-sign everybody.

The main player left on the cutting board was Joe Johnson. The versatile swingman had one year prior offered a contract of 6-years, $50 million – a typical contract value for a player of his production. Sarver left this offer on the table, telling Johnson to earn his money the next season and that he’d get paid. When Johnson received a 5-year, $70 million deal from the Hawks, Sarver scrambled, first attempted to accept the offer he turned down the offseason prior, then counter-offering a contract of 6-years, 60 million. Johnson got angry at the repeated low-ball offers, and accepted the Hawks offer.

Sarver proceeded to save face. He blustered, “Johnson isn’t going anywhere. We will match that offer.” Only the offer never came and Johnson was ultimately traded to the Hawks in a cost-cutting move. In the four years since his trade, Johnson has been named an All-Star three times.

The next offseason, Sarver again stood in front of cameras and claimed to be making room to re-sign playoff hero, perimeter forward Tim Thomas. Only the signing never came. Sarver said he would pay whatever it took, only he didn’t. Thomas signed with the Los Angeles Clippers.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Demise”

The road to their final resting place wasn’t brought about only by a failure to re-sign young players. Along the way the Sarver-run Suns had held a total of 11 first-round draft picks. Only Sarver couldn’t justify spending money on young, unproven players, and thus traded eight of the eleven picks.

Along with the eight picks, out were Johnson, Quentin Richardson, Steven Hunter, Tim Thomas, James Jones and Shawn Marion, whose average age at the time of departure was roughly 26. In their place were Kurt Thomas, Raja Bell, Brian Grant, Boris Diaw, Grant Hill and Shaquille O’Neal, whose average age at the time of replacement was roughly 32.

Without the influx of youth via the draft, the run-n-fun quickly became huff-n-puff. Many feared the added age would become an anchor to the Suns’ speedboat style. In reality, the age became concrete shoes, and only hastened their demise. While true that he team needed experience, also true is that Sarver sacrificed the future on the altar of the immediate simply to save money. Every pick traded and every player allowed to walk saved him millions.

Sarver, however, didn’t reserve fiscal fascism with players only. Bryan Colangelo, 2005 Executive Of The Year, was let go in 2006. Colangelo went on to win Executive Of The Year honors again just one season later in Toronto. Mike D’Antoni, 2005 Coach Of The Year, was allowed to walk in 2008. Many credit D’Antoni for the rise of the Suns.

. . . . .

“Final Resting Place”

Now we fans watch the 7-foot, 340-pound O’Neal lumber up the same court where the svelt, 6-7, 230-pound Marion once glided.

The Suns have made the playoffs every season in Sarver’s tenure as owner. Five seasons, five postseasons. But today, looking up at the final playoff spot in the west, the Suns are set to miss out on the playoffs.

Ladies, gentlemen...Family, friends, fans, it’s only the latest of what they have missed out on.

[duncan228]

Nice piece JMarkJohns. Have you done others? Who did you shop it to?

[JMarkJohns]

Nice piece JMarkJohns. Have you done others? Who did you shop it to?

I was a sports writer for a handful of years at a The Sun of Yuma, Arizona. I shopped it to Arizona Republic and East Valley Tribune, each through a former colleague. Figured I had a connection. People may be mad at Sarver, but nobody wants to call him on anything. Never figured anyone would bite, but figured it worth a shot. I wrote it for a board I moderate at. They enjoyed it.

[Culburn369]

They were right there though for just a moment until they let themselves get "Horryed"...they have august company though: Sacramento got worse "Horryed" and Detroit even worser "Horryed."

Horry is the prince of ing darkness.

[phyzik]

They were right there though for just a moment until they let themselves get "Horryed"...they have august company though: Sacramento got worse "Horryed" and Detroit even worser "Horryed."

Horry is the prince of ing darkness.

...and I loved him all the more for it during his tenure with the Spurs.

I have no qualms about feeling all warm and fuzzy inside whenever I read an article about the Suns death and knowing the Spurs had a large part in their execution.

Their fans, at the time, where some of the most obnoxious and annoying. More-so than Dallas and Laker fans can ever be (at least for me).

While you are somewhat annoying Cul, I generally laugh at most of your posts because I know someone is going to bite (I've done it several times) but during those few years when the Suns where compe ive some of their fans would actually downright piss me off with their obnoxiousness.


P.S.

tee, hee

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wrote this last march, shopped it around, but nobody bought it. Didn't get too much feedback beyond disbelief that I was critical of Sarver, or one "I can't print that" about my critiques of Sarver. Oh well.. their loss. As for most who might be surprised that I'm defending itty-bitty ball, that's not necessarily what I'm saying. In fact, my explanation as to why I'm not is another article entirely. In truth, I was OK with a number of moves/move-ons that occured, but within the greater context, I just couldn't pretend like the moves were made by people who knew what they were doing.

The Death Of Fun
By JMarkJohns

Dearly departed: We are gathered here today, not to celebrate what was, but rather lament what could have been.

Family, friends, fans… It didn’t have to end this way.

The year is 2004. The iconic and much beloved owner of the Phoenix Suns, Jerry Colangelo, sells his majority shares to Arizona-raised and educated, Robert Sarver. Fans of the franchise are excited to see ownership of the Suns stay localized. Surely Sarver would understand the plight of fans desperate for their first NBA Championship.

Roughly 40 years after the team’s ins ution in the “Valley of the Sun” fans could sense a le was close. The fanbase was so hungry they could taste it. Along the way they gobbled up everything Robert Sarver threw their way; about how fiscal responsibility was the best way to keep the team compe ive, and how having only content and happy players gave the team the chemistry necessary to win.

So blinded by optimism were they to see the sly hand of sabotage moving season after season. Shielded by the many promises, fans were too distracted by the beauty they beheld on the court to notice rotating door off it.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Prize”

Things started off with a boon. Sarver inherited a team with talent at every position but one: point guard. He went out and backed up his big talk of les by paying for prodigal Sun, Steve Nash, a multiple-time All-Star PG who was returning to Phoenix six seasons after requesting a trade out of town. The youthful talent was the framework of this metaphorical Ferrari. Nash was the motor.

Expectations outside of Phoenix were low. Many thought the Suns too young to be truly compe ive. It made sense, being that the Suns had the youngest average age of any team in the League that season.

Still, there was a spark. They played with passion and reckless abandon every night. You could see they were enjoying themselves. Their motto, “Seven Second Or Less,” spoke to their ability to score within the first seven seconds of the 24-second offensive shot clock. They quickly became media darlings, providing the shot in the arm that the League had been missing for years. Their final point total routinely hit 120 in a league at a time when just over 95 was the average.

Basketball was fun again.

Despite losing to the much more experienced San Antonio Spurs in the Western Conference Finals, optimism flooded the streets. A le was imminent. It wasn’t a question of if, or even when, but rather how many.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Lies”

The 2005 offseason became crucial to the Suns future. Key players were up for free agency or contract extensions and the Suns needed to address the issues of experience and toughness exposed in their series versus the Spurs.

Sarver, unlike most owners, did more than just sign the checks. He dealt with contract negotiations himself, only occasionally taking the input of those hired for the process.

Sarver told the players he’d allow the market to dictate the total of the extensions he’d offer. Only, once the market surprised Sarver with the cost, Sarver balked at the expense it would take to re-sign everybody.

The main player left on the cutting board was Joe Johnson. The versatile swingman had one year prior offered a contract of 6-years, $50 million – a typical contract value for a player of his production. Sarver left this offer on the table, telling Johnson to earn his money the next season and that he’d get paid. When Johnson received a 5-year, $70 million deal from the Hawks, Sarver scrambled, first attempted to accept the offer he turned down the offseason prior, then counter-offering a contract of 6-years, 60 million. Johnson got angry at the repeated low-ball offers, and accepted the Hawks offer.

Sarver proceeded to save face. He blustered, “Johnson isn’t going anywhere. We will match that offer.” Only the offer never came and Johnson was ultimately traded to the Hawks in a cost-cutting move. In the four years since his trade, Johnson has been named an All-Star three times.

The next offseason, Sarver again stood in front of cameras and claimed to be making room to re-sign playoff hero, perimeter forward Tim Thomas. Only the signing never came. Sarver said he would pay whatever it took, only he didn’t. Thomas signed with the Los Angeles Clippers.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Demise”

The road to their final resting place wasn’t brought about only by a failure to re-sign young players. Along the way the Sarver-run Suns had held a total of 11 first-round draft picks. Only Sarver couldn’t justify spending money on young, unproven players, and thus traded eight of the eleven picks.

Along with the eight picks, out were Johnson, Quentin Richardson, Steven Hunter, Tim Thomas, James Jones and Shawn Marion, whose average age at the time of departure was roughly 26. In their place were Kurt Thomas, Raja Bell, Brian Grant, Boris Diaw, Grant Hill and Shaquille O’Neal, whose average age at the time of replacement was roughly 32.

Without the influx of youth via the draft, the run-n-fun quickly became huff-n-puff. Many feared the added age would become an anchor to the Suns’ speedboat style. In reality, the age became concrete shoes, and only hastened their demise. While true that he team needed experience, also true is that Sarver sacrificed the future on the altar of the immediate simply to save money. Every pick traded and every player allowed to walk saved him millions.

Sarver, however, didn’t reserve fiscal fascism with players only. Bryan Colangelo, 2005 Executive Of The Year, was let go in 2006. Colangelo went on to win Executive Of The Year honors again just one season later in Toronto. Mike D’Antoni, 2005 Coach Of The Year, was allowed to walk in 2008. Many credit D’Antoni for the rise of the Suns.

. . . . .

“Final Resting Place”

Now we fans watch the 7-foot, 340-pound O’Neal lumber up the same court where the svelt, 6-7, 230-pound Marion once glided.

The Suns have made the playoffs every season in Sarver’s tenure as owner. Five seasons, five postseasons. But today, looking up at the final playoff spot in the west, the Suns are set to miss out on the playoffs.

Ladies, gentlemen...Family, friends, fans, it’s only the latest of what they have missed out on.

A nice prelude to what we're gonna be watching this season (as I watch Philly abuse Phoenix on the offensive glass in a pre season game).

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And Phoenix was never the best team in the WCF. They couldn't get it done. Enough stories about how good the Suns were, how bout stories that discuss what the Suns should be doing.

[JMarkJohns]

Yeah, the rebounding is going to be terrible. When Amare is your best rebounder, you're in deep .

[JMarkJohns]

And Phoenix was never the best team in the WCF. They couldn't get it done. Enough stories about how good the Suns were, how bout stories that discuss what the Suns should be doing.

I've written those as well. Nobody wants to hear about the three-team trade that Sarver nixed that would have brought Camby and Mike Miller to Phoenix for Marion (to Memphis, who sends Swift/Lowry to Denver). Sarver nixed that for the expense taken on, even though it's likely the only trade that helps them once Garnett for Amare is nixed by Minnesota.

I'd love to rip Sarver for all his mistakes. I've done so repeatedly in post. Unfortunately, nobody - and I almost literally mean nobody - cares. Nobody cares to hear about all the players Sarver drafted/traded or passed on by trading the picks. Nobody cares to hear how D'Antoni misused Kurt Thomas and James Jones, two of the teams better defenders, in that 2007 series vs. the Spurs. Nobody cares to hear that there were times when D'Antoni literally benched a player for committing a foul when said player was only trying to play a modi of defense - namely Amare - which directly resulted in apathetic, incapable defenders. Nobody cares to hear that without defense and rebounding, the Suns may not have even made the Finals vs. Utah, even had they gotten past San Antonio in 2007.

I could go on. Again, this wasn't written because I believe every word I said in it. I believe in every instance I get to blame Sarver, and wanted to burst every Suns fans' bubble that, 1. under Sarver's watch, the Suns have only ever gotten worse, 2. that under Sarver, the future is dim, and 3. that even when they were the most fun team in the League, they failed in the most important facet of the game: winning a le.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I agree with everything you said 100%, and again, the problem is no one cares. For every fan like you or me, there 50 fans who do nothing more than read the Paul Coro, Dan Bickley and Paola Boivin fluff articles and in their mind every fan should be a ra ra GO SUNS!!! Cheerleader who never question something the team does.

[JMarkJohns]

Stupidity disgusts me... It doesn't take much at all to be informed in your opinion, not vomit up crap spoon fed you by the media. Jerry Colangelo actually owned a stake of the Republic. I wonder if this stake was part of the deal that Sarver purchased? If so, there's your BS factor of the Republic.

[JMarkJohns]

You want the truth? Can ANYONE handle the truth?

What's my issues with Robert Sarver?

2004, Sarver starts what will be a long running tradition of selling 1st-round picks. This time for a future 1st and a 2004 2nd, passing on the opportunity to land Deng, Iguodala, Al Jefferson and Biedrins.
04-05, balks at giving Joe Johnson a 6-year, 50 million dollar deal, sticking to his guns at 6 years 45 million, telling JJ to go earn his contract extension, which JJ does, then...
2005, balks at giving JJ market value. After Redd, Allen and Hughes go for five years and 70 million each (pretty much), Sarver offers JJ 5 years, 50 million, which pisses JJ off, then after Atlanta gets involved, offers five years 60 million, still 10 million below Atlanta's offer.
2005, Suns trade their acquired 1st to New York as part of an ever evolving package to obtain Kurt Thomas. The initial reports had Thomas and a New York 1st coming to Phoenix for just Quentin Richardson. Next it was straight up. Finally it was Richardson and the acquired 1st to New York for just Kurt Thomas.
2006, To assert control and send a message that he's the absolute authority when it comes to the Suns, Sarver alienates Bryan Colangelo, running the defending executive of the year off mid-season. Colangelo immediately signs to be Toronto's GM, and is allowed to leave for no compensation given, despite BC still being under contract.
2006, with both starting big men done the for the year, and minimal bench depth, Sarver opts not to use the several million in a trade exemption to bring in true big man help, despite several quality options being available. Signs Tim Thomas, which works out very well, but then leads to...
2006, after selling off yet another two draft picks to "save money to resign Tim Thomas", Sarver then low balls the player who almost singlehandedly won them the Lakers series that previous postseason. Thomas wants four years, 20 million, a very reasonable request, but Sarver offers only three years 15 million. Tim takes the Clippers offer, leading to...
2006, them handing Marcus effin' Banks a 5 year, 23 million contract.
2006-07, with it very evident that Phoenix needed a backup PG, and with quality options like Lue and Anthony Johnson available, Sarver determines that they have enough players, only to see Nash almost break down in the coming playoffs after D'Antoni played him a career high in minutes.
2007, Another draft, another sold pick, this time going along with quality rotation player, James Jones, for nothing bu 3 million for Sarver's pockets.
2007, despite knowing his importance, Sarver greenlights (or mandates) the trading of Kurt Thomas and two future 1st-rounders, neither of which was protected in any way, to Seattle for literally nothing.
2007-8, after years of feeling illused and ignored, Marion demands to be traded, and his request is granted as he and Banks are packaged together and sent to Miami for an aged Shaquille O'Neal, a move that has yet to may off in anything other than increased jersey sales.
2008, despite absolutely know for a fact that this team is in dire need for a true back up PG for like the fifth year running, Sarver has ed around and allowed most every FA to sign elsewhere. He is engaged in ongoing discussions to sign acquired 2nd-rounder, Goran Dragic, but price will likely factor in and Mike Wilks appears to be the fallback plan.

In Sarver's time as owner...

2004 draft - sells an acquired 05-06 Cleveland 1st to Charlotte for them to take on Jahaidi White's remaining year.
2004 draft - trades their #7 overall pick to Chicago for a future first, 3 million and a 04-05 second-rounder.
2005 draft - trades their acquired Chicago pick to New York along with Quentin Richardson to acquire Kurt Thomas.
2006 draft - trades their acquired Lakers pick to Boston for 3 million and an acquired Cleveland 1st
2006 draft - trades their own 1st rounder to Portland for 3 million
2007 draft - trades their acquired Cleveland 1st along with James Jones to Portland for 3 million
2008 offseason - trades two future Suns 1st along with Kurt Thomas for 3 million

Imagine if they had kept those picks.

Players available with said picks?

2004 (1 pick, 7th overall): Luel Deng, Andre Iguodala, Andris Biedrins, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, Jameer Nelson, Kevin Martin

2005 (2 picks, 13 overall, 21st overall): Sean May, Danny Granger, Hakim Warrick, Jarrett Jack, Francisco Garcia, David Lee, Ronny Turiaf, Monta Ellis

2006 (2 picks, 21st overall, 27th overall): Rajon Rondo, Marcus Williams, Kyle Lowry, Jordan Farmar, Daniel Gibson, Paul Millsap

2007 (1 pick, 24th overall): Rudy Fernandez, Aaron Brooks, Gabe Pruitt, Marcus Williams, Glen Davis, Marc Gasol

- Players Alienated/Lowballed/Let Go or Traded For Nothing-
2004/2005: Joe Johnson
2005: Steven Hunter and Jim Jackson
2006: Eddie House and Tim Thomas
2007: James Jones and Kurt Thomas
2008: Shawn Marion

That's a solid team, right there, no?

- Executives Alienated/Lowballed/Let Go For Nothing -
2005: Head Scout, Rex Chapman
2006: General Manager, Bryan Colangelo
2008: Head Coach, Mike D'Antoni (not that I minded)




Does this help to answer the question

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Stupidity disgusts me... It doesn't take much at all to be informed in your opinion, not vomit up crap spoon fed you by the media. Jerry Colangelo actually owned a stake of the Republic. I wonder if this stake was part of the deal that Sarver purchased? If so, there's your BS factor of the Republic.

It's not even that, just think about what you're reading. When you read an article saying it's a good thing the Suns are no longer a contender, ask yourself if this is something you should take seriously.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My one issue with that JMarks, is that it makes it sound like Bryan Colangelo was the GOAT of general managers, when BC ed plenty of things up as GM.

[JMarkJohns]

My one issue with that JMarks, is that it makes it sound like Bryan Colangelo was the GOAT of general managers, when BC ed plenty of things up as GM.

No doubt, but he did go on to become Executive of the Year with Toronto the following year. He had a flawed view of how to construct a le-contending team, no doubt. Still, he was better at GM that D'Antoni, and, at the very least, had a quality evaluative eye for draft talent. Phoenix should have received compensation. That was my main gripe. How can you have a reigning GM of the year under contract and just let him walk?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

No doubt, but he did go on to become Executive of the Year with Toronto the following year. He had a flawed view of how to construct a le-contending team, no doubt. Still, he was better at GM that D'Antoni, and, at the very least, had a quality evaluative eye for draft talent. Phoenix should have received compensation. That was my main gripe. How can you have a reigning GM of the year under contract and just let him walk?

The same way you could have a player who's the only reason you have a fighting chance against the Spurs in 2007 and then trade him for nothing.

Of course he was a better GM than D'antoni, but neither one was good at all. Other than the 2004 off season, Colangelo was more or less a joke at GM.

And even now, last I checked, Toronto is still a joke.

[Culburn369]

...and I loved him all the more for it during his tenure with the Spurs.

I have no qualms about feeling all warm and fuzzy inside whenever I read an article about the Suns death and knowing the Spurs had a large part in their execution.

Their fans, at the time, where some of the most obnoxious and annoying. More-so than Dallas and Laker fans can ever be (at least for me).

While you are somewhat annoying Cul, I generally laugh at most of your posts because I know someone is going to bite (I've done it several times) but during those few years when the Suns where compe ive some of their fans would actually downright piss me off with their obnoxiousness.


P.S.

tee, hee

They were pretty insufferable at the time, but, they hadn't rung and it'll make you defensive & touchy. They had you legitimately on the ropes and everybody knew it. Horry hated that organization so he didn't even calculate it, he just shoved out of raw frustration, and struck gold.

[pauls931]

Didn't Sarver have to turn to an uber cheat skate because he was a dumbass and leveraged himself too much with real estate?

[JMarkJohns]

As I've said in the past, it doesn't matter who the GM is, for worse or worse yet, the man behind the curtain is Sarver, and the PHX media is doing its best to promote a mantra of, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" ...

You didn't mind Colangelo being let go, I didn't mind D'Antoni being let go. The gripe, that each was allowed to walk while under contract for absolutely nothing, despite each having been given much credit for the rise/style of Phoenix, and being honored with award for their hand in the "success" ... Whether or not you agree with the end, the means should infuriate you as a fan.

[JMarkJohns]

Didn't Sarver have to turn to an uber cheat skate because he was a dumbass and leveraged himself too much with real estate?

Sarver, as shown in this thread, has always been a cheapskate and dumbass in his personal handlings of the Suns, regardless of the Real Estate Market, which, when he sold his first pick and lowballed his first player, was at it's absolute peak. Sarver may now use such as a shield, but don't be told it's linked. It's not. At least, it wasn't.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

As I've said in the past, it doesn't matter who the GM is, for worse or worse yet, the man behind the curtain is Sarver, and the PHX media is doing its best to promote a mantra of, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" ...

You didn't mind Colangelo being let go, I didn't mind D'Antoni being let go. The gripe, that each was allowed to walk while under contract for absolutely nothing, despite each having been given much credit for the rise/style of Phoenix, and being honored with award for their hand in the "success" ... Whether or not you agree with the end, the means should infuriate you as a fan.

Yes I agree, and yeah I never thought about getting compensation (btw, it's not like I mind Antoni leaving ).

BC was a bad GM long before Sarver came along, but that's beside the point. Basically, as long as Sarver is owner, the Suns are ed.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Didn't Sarver have to turn to an uber cheat skate because he was a dumbass and leveraged himself too much with real estate?

Even if that was true, it's not a valid excuse. It's pretty clear he bought the Suns as a mere asset he could flip for a nice profit 10-12 years from when he bought the team, unfortunately with this economy, god knows how long he'll have to hold onto the team before he sells.

[Findog]

Once upon a time, the Phoenix Suns were the best team in the Western Conference.

When was this? 1993?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

When was this? 1993?

Na, 1995 before Danny Manning's injury.