McDonald: Hairston, Williams hold own

[SpurNation]

Another thing to look at is the investment they've made in the Toros. The Spurs want to show fans that it is worth their time to watch them and follow the players. Isn't there a possibility of cutting either Bogans or Haislip?

I was kind of thinking along these lines as well. Are all of their contracts guaranteed?

And regarding contracts...who would most likely be picked up by another team if released thus relinguishing the Spurs that financial obligation.

[Blackjack]

Anyone care to guess on the likelihood of the 3 possible outcomes?

I'd say:

Malik: 40%
Neither: 40%
Marcus: 20%

That's probably about right; unfortunately..

I'm not going to say I'd be clubbing baby seals if Hairston doesn't make the team, it's just something I wouldn't broadcast to the interwebs, but I think it'd be a mistake basketball-wise; Malik might be the 15th player signed, but this is someone that might be a rotation player given his defensive-prowess.

The neither option is a very real possibility. I understand the rationale in thinking Holt's already spent this much so what's another 2M, but it's just not reasonable; Peter Holt is not the federal government. At some point, there's a limit to where you can go no further. Unfortunately for Malik and Marcus, he may have passed that mark 5 or 6M ago.

Marcus is a little more perplexing to me. There's nothing that blows you away about him, but there's definitely been growth and a confidence that's blossomed in his game. His lack of any great athleticism can have him looking like he doesn't belong at times, but there's a pace and way he's gone about playing the point, specifically in the half court, that somewhat reminds me of Mark Jackson; not his game or level of point-guard ability, just the deliberate, under control and even slow pace he utilizes quite effectively. He did start making his shots and playing pretty decent in his limited minutes, but I couldn't justify him sticking over Malik. But, Marcus was an RC pick and someone the organization has seemed to have an affinity for, so I've never been able to dismiss the prospect of him making the team; despite my skepticism of his worthiness, given the compe ion.

[ulosturedge]

Hairston is better then Bogans. FO jumped the gun on the Bogans signing. They pushed a little too hard on the offseason acquisitions. Not that I expected a perfect offseason. It will still be unfortunate none the less if Hairston doesn't make the roster. He will have a place in the league even if it's not with us.

[Dalamar_the_Dark]

Hariston to make the team. Period.

He played well enough last year for the Spurs in the NBA.

Williams bombed out playing for the Spurs.

Its a no contest.

If Williams is on the team, he will be cut within 3 games of playing an actual NBA game.

Book it.

[mountainballer]

The neither option is a very real possibility. I understand the rationale in thinking Holt's already spent this much so what's another 2M, but it's just not reasonable; Peter Holt is not the federal government. At some point, there's a limit to where you can go no further. Unfortunately for Malik and Marcus, he may have passed that mark 5 or 6M ago.

that's also the one point I'm worried about, but as I tried to point out in another thread, I do hope Holt is enough of a foresightful business man to not only look at this season, but also looks at the 2010-11 and 2011-12 seasons. because then the 1.7 million investment in Malik for this year might pay big dividends.
why?
for 2010-11 Spurs have only one single wing under contract (RJ), they will need to re sign or replace Manu, Mason, Finley, Bogans. Malik is on a minimum contract till 2012. if he develops into a legit rotation player (I have no doubt he can at least be the #5), the Spurs will have much more flexibility about their 2010 negotiations and moves.
we also must not forget, they want to bring in Tiago 2010 and this will take the more than half of the MLE.
so, they might find themself with 2 million of the MLE left and the LLE. no more expiring contracts to use as trade assets. (assuming they won't use Tony's or RJ's contracts)
not a great position, if you need to find 4 wing players. they would be almost forced to re sign either Manu and Mason to the price they ask for. if Malik was under contract, this situation of course would not be solved. but it is of course a little easier to do your business, when you already have another player of your rotation under contract. this are the small dividends.
the huge upside of this deal would be this scenario: Malik develops great and is ready to take the #3 spot. Manu is re signed for reasonable money. (2 years/ 15 million?) Spurs just need to find a legit #4 and #5. it is possible to find a #4 for LLE money (or re sign Mason for that type of money) and usually you can get a #5 for the vet. minimum. so the whole wing rotation would cost about 26 million in 2010-2011, as against 33 million this season.
just a thought. I hope Holt thinks the same.

[TJastal]

that's also the one point I'm worried about, but as I tried to point out in another thread, I do hope Holt is enough of a foresightful business man to not only look at this season, but also looks at the 2010-11 and 2011-12 seasons. because then the 1.7 million investment in Malik for this year might pay big dividends.
why?
for 2010-11 Spurs have only one single wing under contract (RJ), they will need to re sign or replace Manu, Mason, Finley, Bogans. Malik is on a minimum contract till 2012. if he develops into a legit rotation player (I have no doubt he can at least be the #5), the Spurs will have much more flexibility about their 2010 negotiations and moves.
we also must not forget, they want to bring in Tiago 2010 and this will take the more than half of the MLE.
so, they might find themself with 2 million of the MLE left and the LLE. no more expiring contracts to use as trade assets. (assuming they won't use Tony's or RJ's contracts)
not a great position, if you need to find 4 wing players. they would be almost forced to re sign either Manu and Mason to the price they ask for. if Malik was under contract, this situation of course would not be solved. but it is of course a little easier to do your business, when you already have another player of your rotation under contract. this are the small dividends.
the huge upside of this deal would be this scenario: Malik develops great and is ready to take the #3 spot. Manu is re signed for reasonable money. (2 years/ 15 million?) Spurs just need to find a legit #4 and #5. it is possible to find a #4 for LLE money (or re sign Mason for that type of money) and usually you can get a #5 for the vet. minimum. so the whole wing rotation would cost about 26 million in 2010-2011, as against 33 million this season.
just a thought. I hope Holt thinks the same.

+1

Now you all see why I told you the Bogan's signing was ing re ed, and might end up costing the spurs a great young player for not only this year, but forever if he ends up signing elsewhere.

That signing is basically telling Hairston he's less important and needed to the team than a journeyman SCRUB that was available for the vet minimum (because nobody else wanted him).

Hairston was finally primed and ready RIGHT NOW THIS YEAR to step into that Udoka role as a 5th wing off the bench and give the team much needed youth and energy off the bench.

Whatever happens, it can be certain that now the relationship between the spurs and Hairston is not going to be on good terms.

[ceperez]

+1

Now you all see why I told you the Bogan's signing was ing re ed, and might end up costing the spurs a great young player for not only this year, but forever if he ends up signing elsewhere.

That signing is basically telling Hairston he's less important and needed to the team than a journeyman SCRUB that was available for the vet minimum (because nobody else wanted him).

Hairston was finally primed and ready RIGHT NOW THIS YEAR to step into that Udoka role as a 5th wing off the bench and give the team much needed youth and energy off the bench.

Whatever happens, it can be certain that now the relationship between the spurs and Hairston is not going to be on good terms.

Agree! Bad move. They should have kept their options open.

[anakha]

It's really easy for us in the forum to say "it's only 1.5-1.6M", but that's actually a of a lot for a player that may get into 15-20 total games at garbage time. I'm not going to bag on Holt if he doesn't want to pay it. Caterpillar isn't doing too well this year. He stepped up big already in taking on the tax burden for this year.

This. Dear God, this.

It's going to suck if neither is kept, but I'm not going to about it either.

[BOHOLANO#21]

actually, no, it isn't. one or none allows for a 14 man roster as the end result. one or the other does not.

It's really easy for us in the forum to say "it's only 1.5-1.6m", but that's actually a of a lot for a player that may get into 15-20 total games at garbage time. I'm not going to bag on holt if he doesn't want to pay it. Caterpillar isn't doing too well this year. He stepped up big already in taking on the tax burden for this year.

+1.

[TJastal]

People here are acting like Hairston would have/should have riding the pine the whole year, and would have never seen a minute of action as the last wing off the bench.

Hairston could have taken over that vacated Udoka role as a 5th wing off the bench, and given the spurs a perfect complimentary piece to the veteran experienced but old as Finley. He COULD have had a nice albeit SMALL ROLE as a youthful energy wing off the bench for spot minutes, and with his upside might have carved out more minutes with an opportunity.

More importantly, the spurs would have secured Hairston's services for the future as mentioned above. Now, Hairston's future w/ the spurs is cast in doubt and the spurs are stuck with a journeyman who has put up god awful stats so far in pre-season and has had a mediocre NBA career, but somehow convinced everyone in the spurs F.O. he is the next Bruce Bowen..

[Whisky Dog]

I'm guessing both are gone and possibly brought back in season if available and a need arises. It would be cheaper like that.

[superbigtime]

Bogans is trash. I wish we could do a 2 for 1 trade to include him and maybe Bonner. It is really unfortunate that either Williams or Hairston will lose a spot after all this work and all this investment of time and $ by the Spurs to a journeyman scrub who is slow, short and has stunk it up in the preseason. He's not the next Bruce for sure. Maybe he'll turn it around but right now, I would definitely choose Bruce or Ime (if this was possible -- btw, Ime had 10 points for Portland the other night) or Hairston or Williams over Bogans. I hope Bogans is riding the pine in street threads. It seems very up in the air if he can help this team.

[Spurs Brazil]

Anyone care to guess on the likelihood of the 3 possible outcomes?

I'd say:

Malik: 40%
Neither: 40%
Marcus: 20%

I think it’s 60% for Malik and 40% for open roster spot

[mountainballer]

btw, Ime had 10 points for Portland the other night

btw. Ime just got waived by the Blazers......

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindbla...hese_time.html
Another layer of adversity was added to Ime Udoka’s NBA career on Wednesday, when the Trail Blazers informed the Portland native that he would be waived on Thursday in favor of injured rookie Patrick Mills.

[dbestpro]

Willaims has no chance of making the team. The olny reason Hairston might make the team is that he can play in Austin. Unless there are injuries or major trades Malik will not see more than 50 minutes of Spurs time for the entire season. So, to sign Malik really is to sign him for the Toros. The question then becomes is he worth the double salary for the time hhe will play?

Sadly, the truth is no.

[HarlemHeat37]

I disagree with some of what you wrote, and agree with some..

the question is whether or not Hairston is worth THE RISK for the money RIGHT NOW, like you pointed out..

As a few of us have pointed out in the last week or 2, Hairston's preseason playing time compared to the other unproven players has been a lot different..Pop and RC clearly see that he could be worth keeping, and that he very well could move up in the rotation..if it wasn't clear, then there wouldn't even be a debate right now about keeping him, since we already have 14 guaranteed players, which is definitely enough to field a compe ive team..

[dbestpro]

Here is aother take. Duncan will get paid somwhere close to $9,000 per minute of playing time this year.

If Hairston is kept (1.4 mil with tax), and plays 50 minutes with the Spurs, he will cost $28,000 per minute.
If he plays 5 minutes in 40 games, he will cost $7,000 per minute played.
Being part of the 15 just does not provide for him to be part of the 12. He is an expense that just simply will cost too much over the course of the season.

[Bruno]

Hairston has been better than Williams in the training camp and he also other edges over him: he is D-League eligible, he costs about $200K less to keep than Williams and he is under contract for 2010-2011.

If Haiston is kept, there are basically 2 options for him:
- 12th player on the roster ahead of Bogans.
- Send to Austin.

Now the cost is $1.5M to keep him.
Is upgrading your 12th man from Bogans to Hairston worth that? Is Hairston even an upgrade over Bogans?
Do you spend $1.5M this year on Hairston just to keep him in the pipeline?

[Blackjack]

that's also the one point I'm worried about, but as I tried to point out in another thread, I do hope Holt is enough of a foresightful business man to not only look at this season, but also looks at the 2010-11 and 2011-12 seasons. because then the 1.7 million investment in Malik for this year might pay big dividends.
why?
for 2010-11 Spurs have only one single wing under contract (RJ), they will need to re sign or replace Manu, Mason, Finley, Bogans. Malik is on a minimum contract till 2012. if he develops into a legit rotation player (I have no doubt he can at least be the #5), the Spurs will have much more flexibility about their 2010 negotiations and moves.
we also must not forget, they want to bring in Tiago 2010 and this will take the more than half of the MLE.
so, they might find themself with 2 million of the MLE left and the LLE. no more expiring contracts to use as trade assets. (assuming they won't use Tony's or RJ's contracts)
not a great position, if you need to find 4 wing players. they would be almost forced to re sign either Manu and Mason to the price they ask for. if Malik was under contract, this situation of course would not be solved. but it is of course a little easier to do your business, when you already have another player of your rotation under contract. this are the small dividends.
the huge upside of this deal would be this scenario: Malik develops great and is ready to take the #3 spot. Manu is re signed for reasonable money. (2 years/ 15 million?) Spurs just need to find a legit #4 and #5. it is possible to find a #4 for LLE money (or re sign Mason for that type of money) and usually you can get a #5 for the vet. minimum. so the whole wing rotation would cost about 26 million in 2010-2011, as against 33 million this season.
just a thought. I hope Holt thinks the same.

I think the Spurs would also be wise to look at it from a Toros aspect, as well.

I completely agree with your assessment of the roster moving forward and the cash considerations, but I think the actual bearing of fruit from their farm team is something that should also sway Holt and the Spurs; at some point, the potential prospects have to see a light at the end of the tunnel if you're expecting the Toros to be a true feeder team. Plus, it's good business for the Austin fan base to believe they're watching the Spurs of tomorrow and not a bunch of scrubs that will never make the roster.

Bottom line, Malik makes too much basketball sense for them to release him for basketball cents; even one-hundred-plus million of them.. Malik, in a vacuum, has done everything expected to make this team and he actually fills a need for a team still in need of a defensive stopper; no matter how high they are on Hill, he's just too small for the better 2' and 3's of the league.

[EricB]

sooooo easy to spend other people's money.

[Blackjack]

Soooo easy to understand that spending money on a guy like Hairston now, could actually mean spending less in the future.

Malik's got an upside that could make him a bargain, considering the potential role he'd fill; I suggest you read mountainballer's post and really make an effort to digest it.

[TJastal]

I think the Spurs would also be wise to look at it from a Toros aspect, as well.

I completely agree with your assessment of the roster moving forward and the cash considerations, but I think the actual bearing of fruit from their farm team is something that should also sway Holt and the Spurs; at some point, the potential prospects have to see a light at the end of the tunnel if you're expecting the Toros to be a true feeder team. Plus, it's good business for the Austin fan base to believe they're watching the Spurs of tomorrow and not a bunch of scrubs that will never make the roster.

Bottom line, Malik makes too much basketball sense for them to release him for basketball cents; even one-hundred-plus million of them.. Malik, in a vacuum, has done everything expected to make this team and he actually fills a need for a team still in need of a defensive stopper; no matter how high they are on Hill, he's just too small for the better 2' and 3's of the league.

Good take, Blackjack21. Hard to see a purpose for having this farm club if its best fruit always sits unharvested and untouched on the limb in favor of an old box of moldy fruit some other team tossed out.

[mad0214]

Gotta go with Hairston. Williams is too slow to guard most point guards, but for some reason, it seems like the FO loves this guy. Hairston has probably worked harder than anyone else and it shows the minute he steps onto the court. Hairston still has D League eligibility, and if the above reasons weren't reason enough, that should put him ahead of Williams. The question now becomes, where does Williams go from here? I'm guessing Europe.

[BlackBellamy]

+1

Now you all see why I told you the Bogan's signing was ing re ed, and might end up costing the spurs a great young player for not only this year, but forever if he ends up signing elsewhere.

That signing is basically telling Hairston he's less important and needed to the team than a journeyman SCRUB that was available for the vet minimum (because nobody else wanted him).

Hairston was finally primed and ready RIGHT NOW THIS YEAR to step into that Udoka role as a 5th wing off the bench and give the team much needed youth and energy off the bench.

Whatever happens, it can be certain that now the relationship between the spurs and Hairston is not going to be on good terms.

++1 In roughly the same minutes averaged, Bogans = 2, 2, .5 and Hairston 7, 2, 2. On top of his offensive short comings showcased, Bogans hasn't showed his defensive prowess that he was brought in for. I think that maybe the Spurs knee jerked to replace Bowen and didn't trust RJ's improvement on the D-end. Between Jefferson and Manu as perimeter defenders and Blair, Duncan, Ratliff, ect. patrolling the paint it makes the Bogans signing almost a head-achey kind of perplexing. I'm not gonna about the FO this year too much. If they feel that Hairston is good enough to pay some tax on, good for them. If they don't, he finds another home and proceeds to shred, it's the FO's own damn fault. Bottom line is that Bogans and Finley kicked some sand in the eyes of some youngsters this year, let's hope one small miscalculation doesn't bite us in the ass in coming years.

[EricB]

Soooo easy to understand that spending money on a guy like Hairston now, could actually mean spending less in the future.

Malik's got an upside that could make him a bargain, considering the potential role he'd fill; I suggest you read mountainballer's post and really make an effort to digest it.

I read it and again, its as always easy to spend someone's 3 million when its not yours.