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"Best" not "better" players in the league.
So, in stone, you'd include Brandon Roy in the same class as LeBron, Kobe, and Dwyane Wade? Is that what you're saying?
tlongII loves you.
37.5% on 2pt jump shots not so great though.
"Best" not "better" players in the league.
So, in stone, you'd include Brandon Roy in the same class as LeBron, Kobe, and Dwyane Wade? Is that what you're saying?
tlongII loves you.
That responds to nothing in the discussion.
smh
Another straw man. I never said Big Z wasn't a good offensive rebounder. I just pointed out that he has no vertical to speak of. So he won't ever be attempting to grab those mid-air rebounds that someone like Lebron would go after.
You also claimed Cleveland was a top offensive rebounding team last season, when they weren't.
You realize what you just typed doesn't make sense, right? Defenses don't box out Lebron on the defensive end because.
Where did I say defenses don't box out Lebron?
You said Lebron either makes the shot or gets fouled about every time. Which he is obviously doesn't.
I'd expect a 6'8, 265 athletic freak of nature to make his close range shots at a high rate.
They weren't a good offensive rebounding team last year. Claiming it's unnecessary to crash the glass is quite funny though. Especially if you're playing with Lebron's body.
The straw mans you made are not substantive points.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u77/gtrutzel/GayKobe2.jpg
Nope... those are the elite few. Yes, he is one of the best. He is young and shows great potential to expand beyond where he already has developed. He is not that far behind and you know it. You would love to have him on your team.
... and I could care less about tlongII. He's all talk and no walk.
Sure it does.
I don't think anyone is saying Lebron's skill set is as developed (or more developed) as/than Kobe's (and they'd be wrong if they did). I really don't know what the current argument is about, but the argument about which player is better overall is completely different than which player has made more out of his talents.
I do agree though, Kobe with Lebron's talent would be unstoppable. Thing is though, half the people who post on this message board would be sick with Lebron's talent. You'd almost have to try to not be in the NBA if given Lebron's physical gifts.
Career wise, when Kobe is on the floor, he grabs the offensive rebound 3.7% of the time. When Lebron is on the floor, he grabs the offensive rebound 3.6% of the time. Neither one is a whole lot better than the other in that area.
Allanon I'm sorry the you said about Eric Snow, Larry Hughes and the apparent 4 all-stars is just re ed.
Larry is a career 40% shooter, that's terrible. The guy had a career year in 05 and proceeded to get injured the next year. He was a bad fit with the Cavaliers on the court and off the court. The guy has the worst shot selection ever and couldn't attack the hoop well enough with the Cavaliers after the injuries made him into a pussy.
LeBron is the reason a 32 year old + guard declined, nothing about minutes and his physical skills declining.
Big Z scoring may have decline from 17 to 15 and 16 however his shooting % went up from 44% in 03 to 50% in 06.
Not a strawman argument. Z's lack of vertical doesn't affect his offensive rebounding, and that was my point. And, that doesn't matter with what I was saying since I stated LeBron doesn't crash the offensive boards all that much because that's not what the coaches ask of him.
No, I said the "last few seasons" the Cavs were one of the best offensive rebounding teams, not specifically last year. However, I admit that I didn't know they fell off as a team in that department. Although, I did also specifically say he has had frontline teammates that have been very good, above average offensive rebounders, and that was true last year despite them not being a good offensive rebounding team as a whole. He still had three teammates in the frontcourt that averaged over 2 offensive rebounds a game. The Cavs give LeBron a lot of responsibility on the offensive end. Offensive rebounding isn't one of the things they ask him to consciously do. They have forwards and centers that are good at it.You also claimed Cleveland was a top offensive rebounding team last season, when they weren't.
I will apologize for this one. I had my mind on offensive rebounding. That's my bad.You realize what you just typed doesn't make sense, right? Defenses don't box out Lebron on the defensive end because.
Where did I say defenses don't box out Lebron?
No, what I said was:You said Lebron either makes the shot or gets fouled about every time. Which he is obviously doesn't.
I'd expect a 6'8, 265 athletic freak of nature to make his close range shots at a high rate.
And, in basketball, when you make 64% of your close shots (I didn't check this number, that's the numbers you put out there), that's not missing a lot of dunks and lay-ups. 64% shooting on close shots is great for a big man who only attempts dunks, much less a small forward. He doesn't miss a lot of dunks and lay-ups. You didn't refute that.When LeBron attacks the rim, he gets fouled or dunks it. He doesn't miss a lot of dunks/lay-ups, thereby when he does attack the rim, he's not in position to rebound because he's not missing or he gets fouled.
But, I'll even explain further. When players attack the basket off of dribble drives, especially with the speed, momentum, and aggressiveness that someone like LeBron does, they aren't in position to rebound their own misses because that momentum generally takes them past the rim. Now, if you're talking about a more stationary close shot from either out of the post or a back-door dump down, then it's easier to rebound your own miss because your momentum isn't pushing you far from your stationary or semi-stationary position. A guy like LeBron isn't going to be in position to rebound his misses, which again aren't that many to begin with, because he's way past the basket.
Yes, I acknowledged not knowing that earlier. However, that's not why it's unnecessary for LeBron to crash the boards. It's because Cleveland doesn't ask LeBron to crash the boards since they have had forwards and centers who crash the boards. Now, apparently they weren't that great "as a team" getting offensive last year specifically. But, seeing how they had the best record in the league, it's not like it was necessary for them to do it in order to win games.They weren't a good offensive rebounding team last year. Claiming it's unnecessary to crash the glass is quite funny though. Especially if you're playing with Lebron's body.
I made a mistake about offenses not defenses boxing out LeBron. I apologize for that. The other points are valid and pertinent and are not strawman arguments.The straw mans you made are not substantive points.
I think you will find that the Cavaliers FG% in 07 and 08 were 29th in the league at .442% and .436% however last year they were 6th in the league at .468%.
Less shots missing means less O board opportunities.
You know, if it was just 1 guy, I'd agree with you King, but look at every free agent that's come to play with LeBron. Not a single one improved his stats while LeBron's stats have continued to increase.
LeBron's winning games on his sheer greatness alone, and that's not a good thing when you are trying to win a ring.
Kobe went through the same thing with his 81 points, etc. People actually think he's lost a step when in actuality, he's learned to pick his spots.
Outside of Pau, Kobe's playing with the same scrub like team he's had since Shaq left. The only difference is Kobe's learned how to make the scrubs look good.
We've all bought into the myth of this "great, stacked" Lakers team and Kobe's off somewhere laughing to himself.
Last edited by Allanon; 10-24-2009 at 10:27 PM.
I guess sometimes it helps to do your own research.
http://www.82games.com/0809/FGSORT12.HTM
According to the above link from 82games.com, LeBron James shot 71.7% on close shots for the 2008-09 season. That was good for second best in the league, behind Andre Iguodala. That also means LeBron made a higher percentage of his close shots (dunks and lay-ups) than players like Shaq (69.9%), Amare (65.8%), Dwight Howard (62.2%), Yao (61.4%), and Duncan (59.9%).
So, once again, I think it's fair to say that LeBron doesn't miss a lot of his dunks and lay-ups. Especially when you look at the shooting percentages of players around the league. LeBron doesn't miss a lot of close shots. And, again, that along with how aggressively he attacks the rim means he doesn't have a lot of chances to rebound his own misses.
If Kobe had Lebrons body, atleast he would be able to post up Derek Fisher.
I am a lot more objective than you.
Originally Posted by Culburn369
Yer incapable of objectivity
Cubby survives on his subjectivity.
Knower of Cubby - Wangi
Originally Posted by Culburn369
Yer incapable of objectivity
Sounds about right.
Only when the argument is suited to one or the other, like Duncan and his forwardship & centership.
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