Spurs Look Winded in Loss to Bulls

[DPG21920]

I'll make a case. When your top 3 point shooter is your Center, you end up basically giving up 50% of your possibility of grabbing an offensive board.
So I don't necessarily disagree with taking that many threes, but I do take issue with taking that many threes with your Center.

Take a look at the champs, the Lakers. They took 18.5 attempts, but they also ranked 3rd in offensive rebounding, at 12.4. Spurs? Dead last at 8.9.

How do you fix that though? Bonner's offensive rebounding would not improve if he did not hit 3's. It is about personnel, the Spurs have no other options really.

If you take Bonner off the 3 point line, the no improvement you see in offensive rebounding along with the drastic decrease in 3 point shooting would not be smart.

[neboat]

Having 3pt as a weapon is great and essential...but we shouldn't rely on it as much as we have in the past. The 3pt does not put pressure on the other team in terms of getting to the FT line (the highest percentage shot), putting fouls on the other team, getting to the bonus... The 3pt can be naturalized if the other team is committed to running out to our shooters, especially since our best 3pt shooters can't really do anything with the ball once they've taken a dribble. In our championship years, the only 3pt specialists we had that I can remember is Kerr. Our other 3pt shooters brought other skills to the table: jackson (D, some playmaking), horry (defense and other intangibles), manu (playmaking), bowen (shut down D). However, bonner, mason, finley...that's three 3pt specialists that do not bring much else to the table. Add to that if manu also shoots more 3's than before, then our offense will be in trouble.

[DPG21920]

I also did have the impression we took too many threes, but most of them were good looks at least. Tony, Manu and RJ need to drive more, though. Tony didn't look good yesterday, to be honest. Hopefully, it was just an off night and not a sign that there was more to his hard fall in the Hornets game than there seemed to be.


By the way: Noah a top 10 center? I don't think so. He had a good game, though.

I never said he was a top 10 center. I said I would trade Blair for him right now and he would do much more for the Spurs than Blair.

[ElNono]

How do you fix that though? Bonner's offensive rebounding would not improve if he did not hit 3's. It is about personnel, the Spurs have no other options really.

If you take Bonner off the 3 point line, the no improvement you see in offensive rebounding along with the drastic decrease in 3 point shooting would not be smart.

You play a center that can rebound, like most any other reasonable team out there, and just like what the Spurs did when they had any semblance of success playing defense (DRob, Rasho, Nazr, Horry).
Be it Dice, Rattliff, Blair, or you go out there and get somebody.

We have a ton of 3 point shooters in the perimeter: Manu, Mason, RJ, Hill, Finley. We're married with this stupidity of 'Bonner spaces the floor so Tim can operate', while nobody looks at the negatives: Tim can score 30 like last night, but if we don't rebound we're ed anyways. We get absolutely no second-chance points. We have to overplay Tim whenever we can't buy a bucket. And all the other stuff that has been rehashed forever.

[alchemist]

Spurs Look Winded in Loss to Bulls
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/10/30/s...loss-to-bulls/

Basically, that's my way of imploring you to remember that we do take these things with a gigantic mountain of salt, but here's what happened. And trust me, the Spurs are going to want to brush this one off.

off topic: (it's seems like this has happened over the last 2 years)
Spurs win = no ESPN daily dime
Spurs lose = ESPN daily dime

[nkdlunch]

Sorry, but I don't follow you. If you're only going to get one shot, shouldn't 3pt jump shots be favored over 2 pt jump shots, assuming that they are converted at the recent rates? Most possessions for all teams end in a jump shot.

wrong. The 3pt shot is the easiest to rebound compared to missed 2pt/layups. SO teams that are good offensive rebounds have the advantage of being able to attempt more, because they can get 2nd chance.

Spurs are worst offensive rebounding team so shooting many 3s which is a lower % than 2/layup, is a bad idea.

[howardcopy]

Slowwwwwwwwwww. Man ol'man, that was horrible last night.

Pop is going to have to figure out how to handle the back-to-backs better!

[Bartleby]

I was disappointed with the loss but not surprised (I had this one penciled in as an L in another thread). The bottom line is that young athletic teams have given the Spurs fits for the last few years and this year will probably be no exception, especially on the second night of a B2B.

Yes, the Spurs brought in some youth and athleticism, but this is still a roster that is built for the half court grind of the playoffs and some of the key players (i.e. Manu) are still playing themselves into shape.

[Mel_13]

I'll make a case. When your top 3 point shooter is your Center, you end up basically giving up 50% of your possibility of grabbing an offensive board.
So I don't necessarily disagree with taking that many threes, but I do take issue with taking that many threes with your Center.

Take a look at the champs, the Lakers. They took 18.5 attempts, but they also ranked 3rd in offensive rebounding, at 12.4. Spurs? Dead last at 8.9.

So we're back to Bonner. Frankly, I'm weary of that debate. I don't love Bonner or his game. My point has always been that, just as with all players on the roster, he should play the number of minutes that optimizes the team's chances to win. Right now, IMO, only Duncan and Dice are clearly better. Blair has unlimited potential, but he is most definitely a work in progress. Ratliff can't play major minutes and I don't think Haislip or Ian are NBA ready. So until a trade is made for a better player, which I have supported, we're stuck with him.

Now to your case. Blaming the offensive rebounding issues on Bonner rather than the system is not supported by the facts. The 2006-07 championship team took 19.0 3pt per game and was 3rd to last in offensive rebounding with an average of 9.3 per game. That team didn't start a 3pt shooter at center, yet the results were practically the same.

[pjjrfan]

good question. I hate living by the 3.

another thing, I thought we wanted to go back to Spurs Defense of 2003,2005

How are we gonna accomplish that with Finley and Bonner playing 30mpg each???

That's definitly has to change. But what I saw was a bunch of guys who were playing like they didn't know each other. As a whole the team looked lost and disjointed both on offense and defense. But the main thing is that the Spurs were looking for the long ball which wasn't falling and no one seemed to want to take it in and attack the paint, something the Bulls did aggressively. Thier spacing was horrible, they reminded me of the Vinnie del Negro Spurs of the late 90's before Tim.

[Mel_13]

wrong. The 3pt shot is the easiest to rebound compared to missed 2pt/layups. SO teams that are good offensive rebounds have the advantage of being able to attempt more, because they can get 2nd chance.

Spurs are worst offensive rebounding team so shooting many 3s which is a lower % than 2/layup, is a bad idea.

I will happily admit I'm wrong if you can prove that the bolded statement is true.

[Muser]

So are people still against a trade packaging Bonner/Finley for Foster?

[DPG21920]

Foster is hurt and seems to have developed a bad back problem.

[neboat]

I will happily admit I'm wrong if you can prove that the bolded statement is true.

I don't have prove, but from watching and logic it seems grabbing long rebounds is more about quickness and athleticism rather than strength and position.

[ElNono]

So we're back to Bonner. Frankly, I'm weary of that debate.

I don't blame you. But you know we'll be back to it sooner or later.

Now to your case. Blaming the offensive rebounding issues on Bonner rather than the system is not supported by the facts. The 2006-07 championship team took 19.0 3pt per game and was 3rd to last in offensive rebounding with an average of 9.3 per game. That team didn't start a 3pt shooter at center, yet the results were practically the same.

Horry was a 3 point shooter. But Horry was also an overall much better defender than Bonner. I actually think this is exactly where Pop got the idea, except Bonner is nowhere near as good a defender.
But I think the biggest factor that season specifically was that you didn't have the front lines that you have now. There was no Gasol-Bynum, or Perkins-KG, or Nene-Birdman, or Oden-Aldrige. Tim was also 2 years younger and Bowen could still run with the best of them, and make up for the defensive liability that was Finley.

[EricB]

Foster is hurt and seems to have developed a bad back problem.

He's always had back problems...

[Muser]

I'm just curious, Finley and Bonner are public enemy number 1 + 2 on this board, and everyone complains about Bonners lack of rebounding and Finley sucking ass. If you trade them for Foster you get a good rebounding big next to Tim who can defend.

[SenorSpur]

Having 3pt as a weapon is great and essential...but we shouldn't rely on it as much as we have in the past. The 3pt does not put pressure on the other team in terms of getting to the FT line (the highest percentage shot), putting fouls on the other team, getting to the bonus...

I'll also add that getting the FT line is the best way of getting back into a ball game when you're behind. And you can do so without using clock.

3-pt FG are wonderful if shooters are making them. Yet, the downside is when yoiu miss, there is no quicker way to ignite a fast-break the other direction. On the road, that can be a killer.

[Mel_13]

I don't blame you. But you know we'll be back to it sooner or later.



Horry was a 3 point shooter. But Horry was also an overall much better defender than Bonner. I actually think this is exactly where Pop got the idea, except Bonner is nowhere near as good a defender.
But I think the biggest factor that season specifically was that you didn't have the front lines that you have now. There was no Gasol-Bynum, or Perkins-KG, or Nene-Birdman, or Oden-Aldrige. Tim was also 2 years younger and Bowen could still run with the best of them, and make up for the defensive liability that was Finley.

All true, but the offensive rebounding was every bit as poor.

As to the Bonner debate, I think I'm out except to point out claims based on thin air instead of facts.

If we could just trade Finley and Bonner, we could move onto the next whipping boy. Wonder who that would be? Besides Pop, of course

[DPG21920]

He's always had back problems...

He has played 74,77 and 75 games the last three years. I meant to the point where he could be missing some serious time.

[DPG21920]

I don't blame you. But you know we'll be back to it sooner or later.



Horry was a 3 point shooter. But Horry was also an overall much better defender than Bonner. I actually think this is exactly where Pop got the idea, except Bonner is nowhere near as good a defender.
But I think the biggest factor that season specifically was that you didn't have the front lines that you have now. There was no Gasol-Bynum, or Perkins-KG, or Nene-Birdman, or Oden-Aldrige. Tim was also 2 years younger and Bowen could still run with the best of them, and make up for the defensive liability that was Finley.

Ok, but the Spurs can't just put players in they don't have. Everything is give and take.

[EricB]

He has played 74,77 and 75 games the last three years. I meant to the point where he could be missing some serious time.

Back problems are back problems.

Once you have em, your doomed.

Ask Robinson and McGrady.

[ElNono]

If we could just trade Finley and Bonner, we could move onto the next whipping boy. Wonder who that would be? Besides Pop, of course

If our defense would resemble anything close to years previous to the last one, nobody would like to trade Finley and Bonner. I know I wouldn't.
The bulk of minutes on the other 3 positions are played by the big 3.
And I certainly won't throw RJ under the bus after only playing 2 games for us.

[ElNono]

Ok, but the Spurs can't just put players in they don't have. Everything is give and take.

We could start by not putting in players we do have and decrease our defensive efficiency.

[DPG21920]

That comes at a price. If you play McDyess too much too early, it might actually be a net loss come money time.