Matt Bonner and Michael Finley Talk

[Mel_13]

I'd rather talk about bats.

[ElNono]

I'd rather talk about bats.

It's going to be a slow week with no games until Thursday...

[Mel_13]

It's going to be a slow week with no games until Thursday...

Well, there's gonna be a meltdown after the very likely loss to the Blazers on Friday. If it follows a loss to the Jazz, it will be of epic proportions.

A few days without dozens of "we're doomed" threads is just fine.

[ElNono]

Well, there's gonna be a meltdown after the very likely loss to the Blazers on Friday. If it follows a loss to the Jazz, it will be of epic proportions.

A few days without dozens of "we're doomed" threads is just fine.

But we ARE doomed!!!

Actually, I think we can beat the Blazers... but I won't hold it against them if they do not...

[Mel_13]

But we ARE doomed!!!

Actually, I think we can beat the Blazers... but I won't hold it against them if they do not...

You know I like to look things up. B2Bs involving Utah are among the worst. Over the last four years the Spurs have played in Utah three times as the first game of a B2B. They lost the second game all three times.

I know it's a small sample size, but not all B2Bs are created equal. This one, much like the Denver game last season when Pop sat the starters, stands out as a likely loss from the first time you look at the schedule. Second games against tough, young opponents that have been waiting at home. The game in Orlando on March 17th is another one. Second day of a B2B for the Spurs while the Magic will be coming off a three day break.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Defensively? No way. The only way they can 'hold their own' is if their shots are falling... then they would be basically offsetting what they're giving up on the defensive end.



This is where you and I completely disagree. The way you win championships is being able to make stops when it matters. In order to do that you need to be very solid defensively. I can't think of a NBA champion in recent memory that did not have solid defense overall. Especially in the paint.

I don't think we 'completely disagree' on anything. A team with Duncan, Dyess, RJ and even Hill and Ratliff will be able to play solid defense, no matter what. All I'm saying is that, white we might not be as good at it as in previous seasons, our offense has improved enough to outweight this and keep us in the le challenge.

Bonner and Fin playing a total of 35-40 mins a night would not take us from a solid defensive team to a bad one. Bonner starts right now because Dyess is not in his best condition and because a second unit of Bonner and Blair would be a disaster. Fin starts because Mason hasn't proven to be shooting or defending better. It's not such a disaster at all, them 2 are playing really well right now and Bonner's defense in particular is very underrated.

[ElNono]

I don't think we 'completely disagree' on anything. A team with Duncan, Dyess, RJ and even Hill and Ratliff will be able to play solid defense, no matter what. All I'm saying is that, white we might not be as good at it as in previous seasons, our offense has improved enough to outweight this and keep us in the le challenge.

Names don't mean if you don't play them. Case in point Hill last season.
Now, I'm actually intrigued to see how Pop is going to build his rotations over the season and if the love for Bonner and Finley is going to slow down as the season progresses. Probably one of the most interesting subplots of this season.

Bonner and Fin playing a total of 35-40 mins a night would not take us from a solid defensive team to a bad one.

Disagree. I think defensively you need to set a tone and then you need to sustain it. I'm actually not against having one of Bonner and Finley at a time on the court for sporadic minutes (You kind of have to, since we don't have personnel to completely erase them). They just can't both be there at the same time, especially playing against the opposing team's best players.
And there's nothing underrated about Bonner's defense. You simply can't underrate what doesn't exist.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

And there's nothing underrated about Bonner's defense. You simply can't underrate what doesn't exist.

Well, as much as it doesn't exist, he's played better defense than either Dyess and Blair so far this season.

[z0sa]

And there's nothing underrated about Bonner's defense. You simply can't underrate what doesn't exist.

One of the most overused FAIL arguments this board has ever seen.

It's a complete fabrication that Bonner simply doesn't play defense. Complete, and total bull .

Is he a great shotblocker or rebounder? No. He also doesn't leave his man open and makes near perfect rotations. He's a solid positional defender. Everyone readily forgets or even attacks his stats last playoffs, but he had stretches of great success guarding Dirk (yes, I understand it definitely a team thing, but he was the head of the snake and played just about as good as any big could on Dirk).

[SpurNation]

You know I like to look things up. B2Bs involving Utah are among the worst. Over the last four years the Spurs have played in Utah three times as the first game of a B2B. They lost the second game all three times.

I know it's a small sample size, but not all B2Bs are created equal. This one, much like the Denver game last season when Pop sat the starters, stands out as a likely loss from the first time you look at the schedule. Second games against tough, young opponents that have been waiting at home. The game in Orlando on March 17th is another one. Second day of a B2B for the Spurs while the Magic will be coming off a three day break.

Thanks for the brief info. I was wondering the same but don't have time to look up all the B2B scenerios. Things like you just pointed out. How many second games of the Spurs B2B's are played against teams that will have acquired rest time? Is it equal compared to other team's B2B's? How many of the second game B2B's are played against teams that are playing their 2nd game of a B2B as well?

I think this all could mean significant outcomes as far as regular season wins and losses and playoff positioning. I would hope that it would be scheduled fairly and uniformly across the board regarding all the teams.

[ElNono]

Well, as much as it doesn't exist, he's played better defense than either Dyess and Blair so far this season.

Don't necessarily disagree with that. However, this is the best Bonner can play. The other two have a long way to go and possibly a much higher ceiling.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Don't necessarily disagree with that. However, this is the best Bonner can play. The other two have a long way to go and possibly a much higher ceiling.

Agree with you, but until they've actually shown it, I don't see how anyone can critisize Bonner's role and minutes.

[ElNono]

One of the most overused FAIL arguments this board has ever seen.

It's a complete fabrication that Bonner simply doesn't play defense. Complete, and total bull .

Is he a great shotblocker or rebounder? No. He also doesn't leave his man open and makes near perfect rotations. He's a solid positional defender. Everyone readily forgets or even attacks his stats last playoffs, but he had stretches of great success guarding Dirk (yes, I understand it definitely a team thing, but he was the head of the snake and played just about as good as any big could on Dirk).

And this is the most common FAIL argument trying to defend Bonner. Probably number 3 after 'He spaces the floor for Tim' and 'He's an overall really nice guy'.

He:
- Does not block shots
- Does not rebound well at all
- Does not alter shots
- Does not have steals at any decent rate
- Does not has the size to really stop any true C in the game

'Rotates well' is not any measurable defensive accomplishment considering he gets scored over almost every single time.

[ElNono]

Agree with you, but until they've actually shown it, I don't see how anyone can critisize Bonner's role and minutes.

Because I rather the other two get more burn learning the ropes than playing somebody that is already at his ceiling. Even if it costs some games in the process.
I also don't want mediocrity to be the standard. That was last season and I thought we learned from that experience.

[Mel_13]

- Does not rebound well at all

Bonner has rebounded at a rate equal to Horry and only slightly less than Ratliff.

[ElNono]

Bonner has rebounded at a rate equal to Horry and only slightly less than Ratliff.

Horry actually was a 7.5 rpg guy at the peak of his career. But even if he wasn't the greatest rebounder, he averaged about a block and a steal per game. The guy also had a big ass basketball IQ and a knack for intangibles, much like Manu.

And you know Theo is an above average shot blocker.

[ElNono]

And BTW Mel... I don't pretend a guy that excels at all those categories. I want at least a guy that can be above average in one, then be pedestrian (ie: Bonner level) on the others.

[rascal]

"Hopefully the defense will improve with the new additions and Pop won't feel compelled to give major minutes to Bonner and Fin.

The defense would improve immediately if Popovich simply chose not to play either one, much less give them starting jobs.

That would be a good start.

Finley couldn't keep up with Deng or anyone to save his life the other day, and Bonner offers ZERO help defense and ZERO interior presence.

Combine that with the fact that Duncan can barely jump anymore and its easy to see how an athletic young team like the bulls can beat the spurs all day long on hustle and athleticism alone. Popovich needs to stop relying on all the old goats and start using his younger players, not only because they are more effective against teams like the bulls, but they represent the future and the present. All they lack is the experience to get better.

Its time to put Finley to pasture and Bonner on a seriously short leash. Guys like Blair and Hill need to get WAY more minutes than 17 and 13. Haislip, Mahinmi, and Hairston were recruited and given spots on the team to match up with athletic teams.. what's the point of having them on IR or getting DNP's against those kind of teams.

This is getting old, and tiring fast.

Great post. Agree

Bonner stinks overall. He should not be getting more minutes than Blair.

[z0sa]

Another list of tired cliches which are designed to deny Bonner proper representation/justice

I disagree with most of it, not that all of its exactly untrue, but your agenda of hate is too clear to take it without a tablespoon of salt.

[Mel_13]

Horry actually was a 7.5 rpg guy at the peak of his career. But even if he wasn't the greatest rebounder, he averaged about a block and a steal per game. The guy also had a big ass basketball IQ and a knack for intangibles, much like Manu.

And you know Theo is an above average shot blocker.

And BTW Mel... I don't pretend a guy that excels at all those categories. I want at least a guy that can be above average in one, then be pedestrian (ie: Bonner level) on the others.

Like I told you the other day, I'm out of this debate except to point out factual inaccuracies. I didn't comment on the rest of your list because the items were either correct or represented your opinion. Obviously, I wouldn't try to make a case about the relative basketball skills of Horry and Bonner. I just used him as a known point of reference rather than comparing Bonner to say, Josh Smith.

Bonner's rebounding numbers say is he, at least, an average rebounder.


This last part is just for fun.

When I looked up their numbers, I found one of those really weird statistical coincidences. For their careers, based on rebounds per 36 minutes, Bonner and Horry have the exact same numbers, 2.2 O-rbds and 4.8 D-rbds.

[ElNono]

I disagree with most of it, not that all of its exactly untrue, but your agenda of hate is too clear to take it without a tablespoon of salt.

Good. Let me check 'Hate on Matt Bonner' off my daily activities list...
Now, onto Michael Finley...

[ElNono]

Bonner's rebounding numbers say is he, at least, an average rebounder.

That's if you think Horry was an average rebounder... I'm actually wondering what the league average is per 36 on his position (C or PF, whatever you want to call it).

[Mel_13]

That's if you think Horry was an average rebounder... I'm actually wondering what the league average is per 36 on his position (C or PF, whatever you want to call it).

I'm not nearly interested to look it up again, but I did look up last year's numbers with various filters for size, position, playing time, etc. His total numbers were average, with his defensive rebounding above average and his offensive rebounding below average. That's the facts.

Now as to opinion. My opinion is that his poor offensive rebounding numbers are a result of his specific role in the team's offense and the team's overall defensive philosophy. His role in the offense is mostly to stand behind the arc. Once a shot goes up, the defensive emphasis is to get back on defense. Hard for that guy to get many offensive boards. If you remember Bonner's early days with the Spurs, he was used more as an energy guy off the bench rather than as a 3pt shooting specialist. His offensive rebounding numbers that season were actually pretty good, and about double what they were last season.

Now the whole debate about whether it's a good idea to place one of your bigs behind the arc on most offensive possessions is more interesting to some than others. From my point of view, Bonner is out there because he was put out there. As I said in the Theo thread, I'd prefer to see a much different rotation come April.

[booonkers]

Because I rather the other two get more burn learning the ropes than playing somebody that is already at his ceiling. Even if it costs some games in the process.
I also don't want mediocrity to be the standard. That was last season and I thought we learned from that experience.

I agree with this. I'd rather give minutes to players who have the potential to play better defense than settle with players who will never be average defenders. The Spurs can still go back to elite defense considering they were still in the top 10 last year with those players. So I believe the Spurs are capable to going back to championship-caliber defense, but that means fewer minutes for these two guys.

[Em-City]

Is fin better than mason?