Do you believe in god?

[smeagol]

I do

[whottt]

Do you believe in personal computers?

Good thing someone did....IMHO.


Ancient folk would probably be pretty impressed with the PC, I wonder what their description of it would sound like...

"Wafer thin microchips made from silicone and a complex chemical treatment process placed in a system board coordinated with various integrated circuit boards, PCI slots, with SATA drives"


If you showed them a PC their description would probably read something exactly like that some 2000 years later after countless translations into other languages, revisions and reinterpretations...



Seriously though, I think it's a pretty obvious conclusion that since the bible doesn't read like the scientific textbook it claims to be...it's total bull and fairytales. 100%. Especially that part where it claims god is some old man sitting on a throne in the clouds.

[Wild Cobra]

Do you believe in god?

One of my coworkers would say yes, calling her "She who must be obeyed."

[DarkReign]

I dont believe in God, I believe in Ancient Astronauts. Its just as plausible.

Is blue text necessary?

[AussieFanKurt]

Even if there is a god, it wont be behind some fanatical, irrational man-made religion

[word]

The best thing about this thread, is I get to see who I won't have to be hanging out with for eternity.

[AussieFanKurt]

please prove heaven

[whottt]

Even if there is a god, it wont be behind some fanatical, irrational man-made religion

Why do you say that? I'd say if there was a god that interacted in any way with ancient civilizations and he gave them any sort of guidlines to live by...it would read exactly like some fanatical man-made religion in our time now.

[AussieFanKurt]

Man destroys religion. Man destroys god, if there even is one but making fanatical irrational rules that dont fit the 21st century. If God is really behind man-made religion and everything it stands for. him

[whottt]

I dont believe in God, I believe in Ancient Astronauts. Its just as plausible.

And why do they have to be different? They didn't have a word for Ancient Astronaut back then...they'd use the word God or perhaps God was their word for Ancient Astronaut.

Perhaps it's their word for extra-dimensional scientist.

You see none of the religions that I know attempt to give detailed explanations of exactly how anything was done...they simply say it was done and many regelate them as fairytales because they do not offer that explanation.

They are not intended for that purpose, they are intended to be guildelines to live by, not directions on how to become gods ourselves.

I don't really see what's so hard to believe about it...we're pretty much on the cusp of creating life now, in fact I'd say we already can, we ourselves have directly evolved other creatures to suit our needs in just a few decades(a load of dog breeds).


The word gay now means something entirely different than it did a mere 40 years ago...there's no way we know exactly what they were saying or intending to say...

Furthermore, most of the religions pre-date recorded history and were meant to be told to children in terms they can understand...children are not going to understand scientific explanations, nor do they have much interest in them.




The simple fact of the matter is...if some scientist created us, created our planet created our entire Universe, coded our DNA right down to the last strand, gave us rules to follow, to evolve by(and religion has been part of our biocultural evolution as long as we have been bioculturally evolving)....he'd be God whether we could explain him in scientific terms or not.

If God came down here right now, the same God that the Abrahamic religions speak of...we would not have the description as they did back then.

Just like they wouldn't have the same description of car as we do.

And no doubt someone with science that advanced likely already knows the keys to immortality, something we ourselves are pondering the possibily of now...

I just don't see why people have such a difficult time reconciling the two things...I can see people see rejecting the way people interpret and utilize region for personal gain, I can see them rejecting their own childlike view of religion...

I don't see how they can continually reject the notion of God and religion in the name of a lack of corroborated scientific evidence...they didn't have science back then nor do I believe we are the pinnacle of our scientific capabilities now.. We don't even understand everything about ourselves yet much less our planet, our Universe. We can only try to understand it.

[whottt]

please prove heaven

http://www.news.wisc.edu/13422

Tell Science to advance more....if it's got all the answers.


Took em ing decades to finally say...ok yeah, Adam's probably a yes, but we aren't going to call him Adam.


They didn't have the word dimension back then either.



If that dimension doesn't work for you..

Consider your Dad's testicle...and don't tell me you had any conception then of what lie beyond...but there you were.

Elevating into higher planes of existence and conciousness



Near as I can tell every single one of us is already in our 3rd different form, and with each jump we've gone to a higher plane of existence, and a higher level or conciousness...


Let's just remember that every single person in this thread on this forum, except boutons, first existed in a testicle and knew one thing, swim, knew it, and did it, then in a uterus. We can even around with that to an extent now...it won't be long till we can determine things like hair color, eye color disposition etc.






Another example of a different dimension goes back to that PC analogy I began with...just about everything in the material world first existed in an different plane of existence, one we can't see, or touch, but every one has contact with...the human imagination. Some times we access it in dreams, sometimes we access it directly, but access it we do...and we bring stuff from it, into our own, every single day...with a just a little ritual....constructing.



Magic potions, spirits, ghosts, visions...everyone thinks ancient folk just pulled this out of their ass, across the planet for the of it or something...it's not that these things have no basis in reality, it's that we lack the ability to reconcile their descriptions and perceptions with our own.

IOW, we aren't near as smart as we think we are...scientific thinker or otherwise, that is the one thing my personal study of the history man has left me no doubt about.



I don't need to wait for science to tell me we aren't the top of the ing food chain and don't know everything there is to know...I can simply look up in the sky or down at the ground and see the ample evidence.


Beyond all that...there are hundreds of millions of people that find religion and belief in God to be very real and tangible thing in their lives...entire civilizations have been built upon them....whereas nothing has been built upon a belief in nothing.



You hear stories about spirits...let's just say evil ones, things you can't see with your eyes, hear with your ears, smell with your nose...they describe these as unseen things with a malicious purpose to enter your body and you up...possess you.


I don't see why it's so hard to reconcile that with a virus. They didn't have the word virus back then. That doesn't invalidate their claim...they were right. Something they couldn't see or smell or hear, was entering a body and ing it up...and there's no doubt placebo's exist...belief, there's also no doubt that many of those things they called potions contained ingredients we now make pharmaceuticals from often for the exact same purpose.


It's not that the PC isn't miraculous you see...it's just that you've ceased to be amazed by it.

[NASpurs]

Yes.

[Blake]

And why do they have to be different? They didn't have a word for Ancient Astronaut back then...they'd use the word God or perhaps God was their word for Ancient Astronaut.

Perhaps it's their word for extra-dimensional scientist.

so you believe in extra dimensional scientists....

no surprises here.

[Blake]

http://www.news.wisc.edu/13422

Tell Science to advance more....if it's got all the answers.


Took em ing decades to finally say...ok yeah, Adam's probably a yes, but we aren't going to call him Adam.

so will science ever find the tree that Adam ate the fruit from, thus disobeying the extra dimensional scientist?

They didn't have the word dimension back then either.

who is 'they'?

If that dimension doesn't work for you..

Consider your Dad's testicle...and don't tell me you had any conception then of what lie beyond...but there you were.

Elevating into higher planes of existence and conciousness

so you are saying that the Earth is like God's testicle?

Near as I can tell every single one of us is already in our 3rd different form, and with each jump we've gone to a higher plane of existence, and a higher level or conciousness...

you've definitely gone to a higher plane.

Magic potions, spirits, ghosts, visions...everyone thinks ancient folk just pulled this out of their ass, across the planet for the of it or something...it's not that these things have no basis in reality, it's that we lack the ability to reconcile their descriptions and perceptions with our own.

I think you are using some magic potions right now.

IOW, we aren't near as smart as we think we are...scientific thinker or otherwise, that is the one thing my personal study of the history man has left me no doubt about.

you actually realize you aren't as smart as you think you are?

I could have told you that.

Beyond all that...there are hundreds of millions of people that find religion and belief in God to be very real and tangible thing in their lives...entire civilizations have been built upon them....whereas nothing has been built upon a belief in nothing.

which God?

You hear stories about spirits...let's just say evil ones, things you can't see with your eyes, hear with your ears, smell with your nose...they describe these as unseen things with a malicious purpose to enter your body and you up...possess you.

I don't see why it's so hard to reconcile that with a virus. They didn't have the word virus back then. That doesn't invalidate their claim...they were right. Something they couldn't see or smell or hear, was entering a body and ing it up...and there's no doubt placebo's exist...belief, there's also no doubt that many of those things they called potions contained ingredients we now make pharmaceuticals from often for the exact same purpose.

You are saying they thought that viruses were demons but science has since proven otherwise.

You just invalidated their claim.

It's not that the PC isn't miraculous you see...it's just that you've ceased to be amazed by it.

do you believe that the Bible was written by God?

After reading it, I have definitely ceased to be amazed by it.

[DMX7]

Tell Science to advance more....if it's got all the answers.

That's a pretty naive thing to say. Fact is, modern science is advancing pretty quickly. And more importantly, nearly every meaningful advance in modern science has contradicted the bible and/or creationists.

You also need to learn the meaning of extra dimensions. It has nothing to do with dreams, magic potions, and whatever other nonsense you lumped into your interpretation of it.

[AussieFanKurt]

At least new scientific material can be backed up with some sort of solid evidence. Its happening fast. Whereas religion in itself has no proof of anything whatsoever and youre just believing an ancient book and some random bloke who apparently could cause miricles. I know if I'm going to use logic and sense that I'll stick with science

[whottt]

That's a pretty naive thing to say. Fact is, modern science is advancing pretty quickly. And more importantly, nearly every meaningful advance in modern science has contradicted the bible and/or creationists.

You also need to learn the meaning of extra dimensions. It has nothing to do with dreams, magic potions, and whatever other nonsense you lumped into your interpretation of it.

I'm not naive, it's pretty obvious you don't understand the point I am making. There is a reason the past dialogues between you and I have been particularly hostile, it's because you make replies like you just did, where it's actually you does not have a clue what I am talking about and you take a condescending tone because of your inability to understand. So I will tell you what, rather just launching in the part where I call you stupid, because I really don't even want to go to that much effort, I'll just say I've zero desire, and I mean zero desire, to discuss anything on this topic any further with you based on the reply you just made, and we'll just leave it at that. You go ahead and pat yourself on the back or whatever it is you want to do...

[whottt]

At least new scientific material can be backed up with some sort of solid evidence. Its happening fast. Whereas religion in itself has no proof of anything whatsoever and youre just believing an ancient book and some random bloke who apparently could cause miricles. I know if I'm going to use logic and sense that I'll stick with science

Well Kurt if it's going to be an either or thing for you I'll just say this(and science can back me up on it)...


As long as we have been modern men we have had some form of religious belief in a higher being(s), or a higher plane of existence, there is even evidence we might have had those beliefs before we were modern men. I don't have the exact numbers off the top of my head but for at least 35,000 years it has been a major, possibly the primary part of our societal organization and our biocultural evoltion, and some branches of science theorize that pepole who believe in higher beings or higher planes of existence, that have the capability and willingness to do so, survived better than those that didn't.

I'm sure you can understand that given your faith in science...since science itself has proven the placebo effect is a real thing.

There is not a single great civilization in our history that was not built upon either a belief in a higher being(s) or higher planes of existence, or both. The civilizations arose with similar concepts, in some cases, seemingly totally independent of one another.


35,000 years right up this very day.


Science, at least in the way you consider it a compe or of religon, otoh, has been a part of our biolcultural evolution, for 2500 years at best.

35,000 years vs 2500 years.

And that's not even taking into account that fact that science is itself a child of religion.


There's absolutely no doubt that religion has served us far better, far more successfully, for far longer.


So I'd say your faith is miguided and goes totally against the actual facts of our evolution and our history.


And if we should do something stupid like blow ourselves up, pollute our world, kill our ocean, and render the planet unlivable, it will be science, not religion, that provided us with the means to do so.


Science has us given the ability to destroy ourselves, our entire species. It's not exactly a teddy bear.

[AussieFanKurt]

There's absolutely no doubt that religion has served us far better, far more successfully, for far longer.

Science has us given the ability to destroy ourselves, our entire species. It's not exactly a teddy bear.

Ummm theres been so many wars fought regarding religion its not funny. So to say that science has given us the ability to destory ourselves is hypocritical.

I dont really care if we've been built with people believing in religion. Just because so many people believe in something doesnt make it any less crazy.

Please tell me how religion has serves us better. It just gives fake hope to people and sure sometimes coincidences happen but otherwise thats life. With war and conflict that was facilitated by religion, I wouldnt say its served more successfully. Maybe equally. But not successfully

[DarkReign]

Honestly whottt, you didnt write one thing I disagree with. I wasnt kidding about Ancient Astronauts....as opposed to the Judeo-Christian interpretation of whatever they witnessed.

It is just as likely that humanity was created and visited by an advanced civilization as it is that an omnipotent Creator favors only us, created us and visited us through his Son.

I am much too cynical to buy the latter but open-minded enough to consider the former. Not because it strokes my scientific interest just the right way but because if it were true, much would be explained (Easter Island, the Egyptian pyramids, Mayan pyramids, 13k+ year old relics and structures of such machined precision that they cant even be duplicated in the modern age...even the Hubble Telescope lense doesnt hold the same tolerance as some of these carbonite (iirc?) carvings. Carbonite is the second hardest substance on Earth, the only thing we can use to cut carbonite is diamond. That means 13k+ years ago, ancient man was using diamond cutters and a really, really big bridgeport to hold those tolerances, cutting on a substance that the nearest quarry to the structure's sight is thousands of miles away).

Honestly, in context, its the best explanation Ive heard for these ancient oddities, engineering marvels and downright unexplainable ability by any standard.

I am not adverse to their being a grand creator (God, aliens, both, who knows?), I am only adverse to humanity's accepted history of trying to explain and worship Him. My hostility has always been aimed solely at man's interpretation.

[whottt]

Ummm theres been so many wars fought regarding religion its not funny.

That's not really true...wars are fought now, and pretty much always, to gain resources and for little other reason. Religion may be a vehicle that serves to unite and divide groups of people in order to fight those wars, but seldom are they fought just in the name of religion.

If people don't unite or divide based on religious beliefs, they will unite or divide for some other reason.

The Civil War in my country wasn't fought over religion, WWI wasn't really fought over it, WWII may or may not have been...but WWI and II were just as much resource wars as anything else.


I mean the death total from just those three wars is probably pretty close to the death total of all other wars in the history of man combined.

So to say that science has given us the ability to destory ourselves is hypocritical.

But religion hasn't given us the ability to destroy ourselves, and sicence has.


Given the fact that we have a tendency to make war, whether it's for religious reasons or not, that's not a really a good direction to go.


And those weren't bibles the US dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I dont really care if we've been built with people believing in religion. Just because so many people believe in something doesnt make it any less crazy.

If it's so crazy then how come it works so well in building civilizations, civil being the key word there...and has for the entirity of our existence on this planet?


Far better than anything else.


In fact there's no evidence that you can have a civilizationof any sort without it.

Please tell me how religion has serves us better. It just gives fake hope to people and sure sometimes coincidences happen but otherwise thats life.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by fake hope...

With war and conflict that was facilitated by religion,

Which wars are these exactly, I bet you I can show you an underlying cause for most of them not due to religion.

I wouldnt say its served more successfully. Maybe equally. But not successfully

And you would be wrong about that, as there is not a single civilization in the history of man that has been founded upon science.

Furthermore, self righteousness and believing oneself superior to another, which was usually part and parcel of those religious wars of which you speak, is a human trait, not a religious one...scientists do it too. So do atheists.

[EmptyMan]

The only time I "talk" to God is when I am cursing him or laughing at this fcuked up world he apparently created.

I've tried being an atheist but it never sticks. Probably because of the childhood programming.

[whottt]

fake hope

Forgot to touch on this...and I really meant to as it goes back to my first post in this thread.


I don't see what's so fake about hope...as a general rule, you have to believe something before it will happen. Believing it may not actually make it happen instantaneously, but generally speaking nothing gets done without first a belief that it will. There is absolutely nothing fake about it.

And back to my placebo point, science itself has verfied that simply believing something can actually make it so at least when it comes to oneself.

There is absolutely nothing fake about it.


That PC of which I spoke first had to have been believed to be possible before someone actually went out and proved it, manifested it so to speak. As we have been taking skys now for a century or so...we first believed we could do it before we actually did it.

The physics that allowed for us to achieve these things have been interwoved into the fabric of our reality for as long as it has existed...it just took us time to realize it and prove it, and if we didn't believe they were possible before we actually knew, we probably wouldn't have attempted them.

[whottt]

Honestly whottt, you didnt write one thing I disagree with. I wasnt kidding about Ancient Astronauts....as opposed to the Judeo-Christian interpretation of whatever they witnessed.

It is just as likely that humanity was created and visited by an advanced civilization as it is that an omnipotent Creator favors only us, created us and visited us through his Son.

I am much too cynical to buy the latter but open-minded enough to consider the former. Not because it strokes my scientific interest just the right way but because if it were true, much would be explained (Easter Island, the Egyptian pyramids, Mayan pyramids, 13k+ year old relics and structures of such machined precision that they cant even be duplicated in the modern age...even the Hubble Telescope lense doesnt hold the same tolerance as some of these carbonite (iirc?) carvings. Carbonite is the second hardest substance on Earth, the only thing we can use to cut carbonite is diamond. That means 13k+ years ago, ancient man was using diamond cutters and a really, really big bridgeport to hold those tolerances, cutting on a substance that the nearest quarry to the structure's sight is thousands of miles away).

Honestly, in context, its the best explanation Ive heard for these ancient oddities, engineering marvels and downright unexplainable ability by any standard.

I am not adverse to their being a grand creator (God, aliens, both, who knows?), I am only adverse to humanity's accepted history of trying to explain and worship Him. My hostility has always been aimed solely at man's interpretation.

Seems like a segment of humans are going to find something to worship, even it's themselves.

I personally don't care what people believe...I just don't like it being imposed on others, but again, that is a human tendency, not a religious one.

[Kamnik]

No, I don't.