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If Bonner's shot isn't falling I'd much rather see Dyess, Blair or Ratliff before seeing Haislip.
my opinion is that Bogans needs to eat up all of Mason's minutes. he's tough, and he brings the intensity defensively. i hope he starts.
a frontcourt rotation of
TP/Hill
Bogans/Manu
is great defensively. from what i saw of Hairston last year, i'd like to see him come in for RJ. he's undersized, but his athleticism and rebounding is good for his size. give him a shot, Pop.
next step: give Haislip a shot. when Bonner's shot isn't falling and/or people are actually playing defense on him (the Raptor's might be the worst defensive team in the league so i look at his performance last night as a fluke), he does nothing else. sucks at rebounding, individual defense, team defense. i'm not saying Haislip is going to be dominant in these areas, but with his athleticism, he's got to have potential. and at the start of the season, he seemed hungry.
Tim Duncan has also got to get back in form. his knee brace is obviously imeding his movement. hopefully he an learn to move with it at some point.
i miss the days when the Spurs held teams to 70, 80 ppg. Pop keeps talking about it, but his defensive strategy to start the season has me wondering.
If Bonner's shot isn't falling I'd much rather see Dyess, Blair or Ratliff before seeing Haislip.
Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger...
i wouldn't know because i've never in seen Haislip play besides a few meaningless preseason minutes. till then, i'll reserve my judgement.
As others have mentioned, there isn't really much of a reason to read too much into what happened last night defensively. The team was basically flying by the seat their pants without Duncan or Parker.
He actually played over 80 minutes during the preseason...and look terrible at everything while doing it.
While it's true it would be foolish to make decisions based on last night's defensive performances, you definitely can extract some stuff from it.
For example, Manu's 4 blocks shows he's still has some defensive knack in him.
Hill athleticism jumping over both Bosh and Bonner to fight for a board, shows hunger and desire to play defense (the flipside of that coin is how easily Bonner gets outrebounded). You also have to conclude that Matt's pick and roll defensive struggles are not going to be merely fixed by watching tape. He's been in the team for a long time now, and if he still turns his back to the ball almost every time.
Blair needs a lot of work. RJ needs work too.
That's certainly your prerogative. Personally I don't think it's all that hard to figure out whether or not Dejuan Blair and Antonio McDyess are better players than Marcus Hailsip, but to each their own.
Bonner is a fundamentally flawed defensive player and probably always will be. He has improved leaps and bounds on his face up defense but his physical makeup will always limit him. I fully expect him to move to a more complimentary role when McDyess finds his groove and gets comfortable in the system. He should be better utilized in this role and less will be expected of him.
As far as the rest of the new guys go...it's just gonna take time. RJ is showing flashes of improvement and Blair will probably need a full season before he learns how to use is base to be physical without fouling.
Spurs played decent D in the 4th quarter when it mattered. ANd when you missing your best defensive big man by far, you are gonna have this kinda games. not worried at all.
worried about Duncan's health though
The Spurs have always had good individual defenders, but their strenght is Team Defense.
We have a lot of new guys, so it will take some time before the team D is right where Pop wants it to be.
But I'm confident everybody will be in sync at one point.
You know, what's really interesting is I wonder if Pop still sees potential in Bonner, and that's why he keeps playing him. Think about it.
Matt is actually decently athletic, we've seen him drive a few times already in 6 games, this latest one going up hard for a dunk. If Pop could somehow get "the lights to come on" defensively for Matt, wouldn't he be our savior? He's almost 7', he can shoot well, he's ok athletically. He doesn't have much of a vertical, but as Duncan illustrates, you don't need to jump out of the building to block shots.
Maybe this has been Pop's plan all along, to correct this guy's mental mistakes, because that's all it is. It's all mental. Matt seems lost on the rotations sometimes, he's hardly ever in the right spot (hence low rebounding numbers) and he doesn't solidify himself when guarding on the low block. It has nothing to do with physical ability.
Maybe this is why Pop has played Matt so much. We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.
Then again, maybe Matt Bonner just sucks.
I wouldn't say Pop sees potential in Bonner. At this stage in his career Bonner is already pretty much everything he's going to be. IMO what Pop sees is how an outside shooting big pulls a defending big away from Tim Duncan, and specifically in Bonner he sees a guy who can shoot the 3 and gives consistent effort. No doubt there are going to be nights where Bonner's shot isn't falling and/or he's matched up against a guy he just doesn't have the physical tools to guard.
This year I would hope Pop recognizes that he's got other options to go to in those situations unlike last year.
+1 Don't forget allowing almost 65% from 3. Hopefully we can build on the better defense they showed int eh second half against Portland once Timmy is back in the line-up.
As for the BOnner dicsussion... I really wouldn't pin any hope on him becoming a great or even servicable defender. At ude and execution. He has shown no signs of becoming a better defender. I will HAPPILY eat the biggest crow sandwich if I am proved wrong. But I think I have a better chance of winning the MegaMillions.
Last edited by Sobe_Kucks; 11-10-2009 at 11:52 AM.
As others have stated, Blair, as much of a rebounding force as he is, is a young, flawed defensive player too. However, I am encouraged by the fact that the guy is trying to move his feet and take charges. Because he's a rookie, he's not going to get the benefit of any calls. For example, he did get jobbed on one last night against Bosh, where replays showed he clearly had position and was clearly outside of the restricted area.
It will take time for him to develop defensive instincts and a mindset. Still, it's good to see him making the effort. He just got to learn how to defend without fouling.
BTW, I don't see very many others willing to take charges.
That's true.
I've said this before and I'll repeat it. Bonner is just fine as a contributing role player. He's being miscast as a starting center. When used too much, we've already seen diminishing returns. Also, the past 2 playoff series have proved to me that he cannot be counted on for clutch shooting.
Preseason means nothing... Please see :Anthony Tolliver.
I'm not too worried. Team defense is definitely the major issue. The new guys have to learn the system and there is a trust issue that has to be established. If the Spurs team defense is strong, they can abide individual defender's weaknesses.
I agree that Bonner's problem is mostly mental, but his lack of lateral quickness is the root of that problem. He needs to get tougher, use his upper body and not rely on his feet so much. Finley is just older and slower. He can't hang with quicker players. Jefferson is improving. He just needs to get into a more defensive mindset and let his offense flow.
All new Spurs have to grasp the concept that "defense first" is how this system functions. George Hill and Dejuan Blair get it. Blair needs to establish post position a little sooner, but he is, considering his lack of height, one of the better defenders on the team. I'd like to see more Theo. If Bogans can't contribute more offensively, I would like to see Hairston get a fair shake, too.
No need to panic just yet. It's a long season and I really think this team will come together when it counts.
Last edited by ohmwrecker; 11-10-2009 at 01:48 PM.
I totally disagree (with that sentence I mean). It's the lateral quickness and the ability to use your feet that makes a good defender. If he used his upper body more, he'd be getting fouled out of every game.
It's still interesting to me if this is the case (my point earlier). I mean, he's 29 and it's his, what, sixth year in the league? If he really is continuing to learn, maybe there's hope for him after all. I've also really had to stop agreeing with people who say he spaces the floor. He gets so many open 3 balls, it's very obvious that his defender isn't even close to defending him on the arc.
Either way, I highly doubt any trades will be made, so what we have is what we'll play, more than likely. I just hope it's enough.
dude as long we win games, thats all it matters
I actually enjoy watching the Chicago Bulls play defense more than I do the Spurs right now. Seriously....and I have never been a Chicago Bulls fan. Not even in the Jordan/Pippen years.
When the Spurs do manage to force players away from the middle and toward the baseline, the help is either late, soft or never arrives. What's there to like right now?
The refs were very generous all around toward the spurs against the raptors. I'm not sure why, usually they give the spurs the short end or worse but in this particular game they were very pro-spurs in their calls. They gave George Hill the respect of an mvp caliber player about every time he drove to the basket. This and many other favorable calls helped keep the spurs within striking distance for 3/4 of this game while the raptors were hitting all kinds of shots. Keith Bogans of all people was even getting favorable calls. Once that started, I was feeling some sympathy for the raptors. Keith ing Bogans, joureyman scrub.. getting more respect than anyone on the raptors.
That said, the spurs did have positives to come out of this. Hill was aggressive and caused problems for the raptors irregardless of the calls with his penetration. Jefferson had a solid all around game and Manu was fantastic in carrying the spurs to victory in the 4th quarter. I just hope he doesn't burn himself out and saves some of these types of efforts for the playoffs.
Bonner actually showed some diversity to his offensive game which I have to give him credit for. His defense was not so good however, but that wasn't surprising. Even in a game like this where he is hitting on all cylinders, his defense probably negated 2/3 of what he did on the offensive end.
Finley I have no idea why he still gets minutes, let alone starts. His quickness is completely gone and they things he does (hit 3's) is duplicated by other players who are younger and should be taking his place (Mason).
What about the question asked in this thread? You addressed Matt Bonner's defense but not really any other aspect about the "Defense"....[or the lack thereof].The refs were very generous all around toward the spurs against the raptors. I'm not sure why, usually they give the spurs the short end or worse but in this particular game they were very pro-spurs in their calls. They gave George Hill the respect of an mvp caliber player about every time he drove to the basket. This and many other favorable calls helped keep the spurs within striking distance for 3/4 of this game while the raptors were hitting all kinds of shots. Keith Bogans of all people was even getting favorable calls. Once that started, I was feeling some sympathy for the raptors. Keith ing Bogans, joureyman scrub.. getting more respect than anyone on the raptors.
That said, the spurs did have positives to come out of this. Hill was aggressive and caused problems for the raptors irregardless of the calls with his penetration. Jefferson had a solid all around game and Manu was fantastic in carrying the spurs to victory in the 4th quarter. I just hope he doesn't burn himself out and saves some of these types of efforts for the playoffs.
Bonner actually showed some diversity to his offensive game which I have to give him credit for. His defense was not so good however, but that wasn't surprising. Even in a game like this where he is hitting on all cylinders, his defense probably negated 2/3 of what he did on the offensive end.
Finley I have no idea why he still gets minutes, let alone starts. His quickness is completely gone and they things he does (hit 3's) is duplicated by other players who are younger and should be taking his place (Mason).
Okay, I'll throw out a few more random thoughts about the defense.
Pop needs to get Finley out of the rotation ASAP, especially as a starter. This sets a bad tone defensively for the team when he starts.
At least we got to see the absence of Bonner to start this last game.. but that could be due to Tim Duncan inactive. Hopefully he noticed that Bonner was more effective coming off the bench as a 4th big behind McDyess and Blair. But I'm not going to be surprised to see him back in the starting lineup as soon as Duncan returns.
I could really get used to Ratliff starting. I think it's a good thing. He picked up a few early fouls which was unfortunate in this particular game but its not a big deal, just means we see Blair or McDyess that much quicker. Its a good role for him. He's not looking for offense so it allowed some of the other guys like Jefferson/Hill/etc to get off to good early starts. Which IMO is more important than trying to get Bonner off to a good early start which is a hit or miss prospect. At least if Hill and Jefferson aren't hitting shots early they are going to be getting to the line and getting something going the spurs way.
Ratliff can also help Duncan alot more than Bonner with defending the interior (with help defense) and getting boards. This takes pressure of Tim. As we've already seen Duncan doesn't need any additional stress on his body.
Conclusion: Pop needs to realize he can't have Bonner or Finley in the starting lineup it just causes too many problems defensively to start games. This should have been done in the 1st or 2nd preseason game. Rotations are going to be screwy and unsettled until this happens. Every game that goes by that either one of those guys (or both) are starting is just another game that the spurs' chemistry and cohesion is going to be a mess.
sorry man, i don't know if I can take you serious after this.
Also, right now, I don't know why you'd rather have Dice in than Bonner. He's only averaging 1 rebound per game more than Matt and his defense is just as bad. Again, I say right now.
In addition, he's an older guy who's minutes need to be limited, same with Ratliff. Especially with Timmy and Tony out. Without those two, we're playing matador defense and high speed offense. Those guys probably shouldn't be running the floor all night at a George Hill-Jefferson-Manu-type of pace.
So, to me, the answer is exactly what we're getting. Bonner getting most of the minutes with Dice and Blair averaging about the same minutes. That's the one thing I do disagree with, though. Dejuan Blair is extremely efficient and should probably get a few more minutes. Especially when they play small ball. , he's short enough to play PF and it'll still be considered small ball.
My biggest hope, though, is that the light bulb comes on for at least one of them, Blair or Bonner. We need some interior D badly.
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