Michael Lind: The Pledge of Allegiance is un-American

[mogrovejo]

Where do you get this Heart of America stuff? What does it even mean?

Caleb Stegall[/URL];3846319] direct attack on the integrity and character of our homes and hearths.

[Winehole23]

[Winehole23]

It's one of those things you have to feel to understand.

Like jazz, I guess. You make it a test of patriotic authenticity and anyone who chooses to abstain doesn't have it. Ok.

[Wild Cobra]

Like jazz, I guess. You make it a test of patriotic authenticity and anyone who chooses to abstain doesn't have it. Ok.

Well, do you feel patriotic or not?

[Winehole23]

direct attack on the integrity and character of our homes and hearths

OIC what you did.

[mogrovejo]

No more or less egophanic than what you just said, in my opinion.

To hear the bleating and caterwauling over Obama not putting his hand on his heart, or over court decisions regarding the pledge one might think otherwise, but I agree with you.

In form it is an oath, however, and it seems to me essentially uncontroversial to point out that loyalty oaths for citizens are somewhat inconsistent with republican values.

Why? I don't deny anyone's liberty to not say the Pledge of Allegiance, I just find them over-sensitive spoiled brats and attention s. I can respect those who don't say because they find it boring or don't feel like memorizing it (as long as they don't try to make some kind of point with their behaviour), but those who allege political reasons are beyond pathetic.

I abhor patriotism and I'm a monarchist. However I have no problems in respectfully singing along the national anthem (which commemorates the republican regime).

Societies are a pact between the dead, the living and the yet unborn. The Pledge of Allegiance is simply a commemoration and remembrance of that intangible linkage (in the case, of the American society). Those who try to make more of it - in both ways - suffer from metaphysical madness.

[Wild Cobra]

Societies are a pact between the dead, the living and the yet unborn. The Pledge of Allegiance is simply a commemoration and remembrance of that intangible linkage (in the case, of the American society). Those who try to make more of it - in both ways - suffer from metaphysical madness.

I agree with this.

[Winehole23]

Well, do you feel patriotic or not?

Sure. I don't really see why should that should put me under any obligation to parrot an oath devised by a Christian socialist with a nationalist bent, but I'll defend to the death your right to do it.

How's that?

[Bartleby]

Societies are a pact between the dead, the living and the yet unborn. The Pledge of Allegiance is simply a commemoration and remembrance of that intangible linkage (in the case, of the American society). Those who try to make more of it - in both ways - suffer from metaphysical madness.

I agree with this.

An argument could be made that a person does not have the Heart of America if they disown the pledge.

To pledge allegiance, is not to be subordinate, but a patriot. One is saying they are loyal to America. Loyal to the meaning of the flag with it's red for the blood shed to make this nation, the white for the purity of purpose, and the blue for the valor of the men who fought for this nation. Loyal to the republic. The republic is the sovereignty of the subdivisions of the nation. States rights, country rights, and individual rights.

[Wild Cobra]

Sure. I don't really see why should that should put me under any obligation to parrot an oath devised by a Christian socialist with a nationalist bent, but I'll defend to the death your right to do it.

How's that?

There's nothing nationalistic about it, and God is a word for a diety, not Jehova.

[mogrovejo]

In all fairness, the paragraph he said he agreed with doesn't conflict with his own views.

Just to clarify, the national anthem I sing is not the American (and obviously I've never said the Pledge of Allegiance).

[Wild Cobra]

Wiktionary; republic:

Noun

1. A state where sovereignty rests with the people or their representatives, rather than with a monarch or emperor; a country with no monarchy.

The U.S.A. is a republic; Great Britain is technically a monarchy.

2. One of the subdivisions cons uting Russia. See oblast.

The Republic of Udmurtia is west of the Permian Oblast.

Now I'll, bet if I looked into a century old dictionary, it would have a meaning better defined.

[Bartleby]

In all fairness, the paragraph he said he agreed with doesn't conflict with his own views.

Just to clarify, the national anthem I sing is not the American (and obviously I've never said the Pledge of Allegiance).

WC's overblown rhetoric about the pledge suggests that he views it as much more than just a "commemoration and remembrance."

[Wild Cobra]

WC's overblown rhetoric about the pledge suggests that he views it as much more than just a "commemoration and remembrance."

Really?

Why do I run across so many people who don't know how to parse words?

Look at my first sentence. "An argument could be made..."

I wrote it intentionally that way to let people understand what others may think. If I thought that way, I would have said so!

If you are not willing to understand the perceptions of others, then you are as much as fault for the problems in this nation as those you blame.

[Winehole23]

Why? I don't deny anyone's liberty to not say the Pledge of Allegiance

No one has done so in this thread.

I just find them over-sensitive spoiled brats and attention s. I can respect those who don't say because they find it boring or don't feel like memorizing it (as long as they don't try to make some kind of point with their behaviour), but those who allege political reasons are beyond pathetic.

Surely it is pathetic to cleave to one's own principles, all the more so if others find them ridiculous.

Societies are a pact between the dead, the living and the yet unborn. The Pledge of Allegiance is simply a commemoration and remembrance of that intangible linkage (in the case, of the American society).

That is your opinion. Not everyone thinks so. Mr. Lind's gloss is that it betrays the values of the founders and obscures our linkage with the past.

Those who try to make more of it - in both ways - suffer from metaphysical madness.

Not really. You just can't stand that others believe differently, so you insult them. How childish.

[Winehole23]

There's nothing nationalistic about it.

But not caring to say it disqualifies you as a patriot. Gotcha.

[mogrovejo]

No one has done so in this thread.

Surely it is pathetic to cleave to one's own principles, all the more so if others find them ridiculous.

That is your opinion. Not everyone thinks so. Mr. Lind's gloss is that it betrays the values of the founders and obscures our linkage with the past.

Not really. You just can't stand that others believe differently, so you insult them. How childish.

Not all opinions are equally valid.

[Bartleby]

Really?

Why do I run across so many people who don't know how to parse words?

Look at my first sentence. "An argument could be made..."

I wrote it intentionally that way to let people understand what others may think. If I thought that way, I would have said so!

An argument could be made that you are trying to backpedal after contradicting yourself.

[Wild Cobra]

An argument could be made that you are trying to backpedal after contradicting yourself.

Yes it could. Is that your opinion? That doesn't make it correct either way.

The closest I came to contradicting my self is my response to WH that it's not nationalism. My point is that the pledge is to the republics of this nation, rather than the nation only.

I see America as a nation meant to be that of states rights. That as a nation, we are better by the variety of ideas rather than nationalizing any one idea. That's why I am 100% against any takeover by the federal government of banking, health, etc.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Cons ution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

In other words, the republic.

[Def Rowe]

I think at one point in his life, WC was a heavy crystal meth user. His comments are often very scatterbrained.

[Wild Cobra]

I think at one point in his life, WC was a heavy crystal meth user. His comments are often very scatterbrained.

More likely you don't have the brain power to follow.

[Bartleby]

The closest I came to contradicting my self is my response to WH that it's not nationalism. My point is that the pledge is to the republics of this nation, rather than the nation only.

I see America as a nation meant to be that of states rights. That as a nation, we are better by the variety of ideas rather than nationalizing any one idea. That's why I am 100% against any takeover by the federal government of banking, health, etc.

In other words, the republic.

I guess it's one of those things you have to feel to understand.

[Def Rowe]

More likely you don't have the brain power to follow.

Tell me I'm wrong.

[Winehole23]

Not all opinions are equally valid.

Some are objectively better.

Perhaps someday you'll deign to demonstrate this is so, but I suspect you'll remain regally content to snub the inferior opinions of others without very much ado. Agreement with you appears to be the standard you apply. Whatever is not congruent with you, is faulty.

[Wild Cobra]

I guess it's one of those things you have to feel to understand.

I wasn't being a judge in that manner. Just using a term to describe at least a small level of patriotism. You either have heart for something or you don't.

Am I wrong?

You either care about this country or you don't.

I think you're just throwing -ball around now to see what sticks. Good luck.